Edgy Comedy and Stand up

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by Marelo

Problem with that is it's not really up to the speaker to decide, except through skilled expression, what the listener hears.

yea its basically impossible to prove one way or the other

but I cant fault a guy for unintentionally offending someone, nor am I the type to mark a topic of taboo (I believe in zero censorship).

Though I tend to lean towards, "ok" I believe few comedians ever mean to hurt anyone with their comedy. An insult comedian, atleast any with moral character, pick on the guy that can take it not the sensitive one that will break down into tears.

[Bells]

Point in question

[Marelo]

Well, yeah, unintentional offense happens. The problem comes when people respond to being called out for unintentional offense with... defensiveness and saying the other people shouldn't be offended. You know, instead of with an apology and an effort to express themselves better in the future.

Like, if someone makes a mistake or missteps somehow in speaking, the act of pointing that out shouldn't be seen as an attack on their character. It's doing the person a favor by helping them realize their mistake.

[rpgdemon]

Here's a question, why do you find "edgy" jokes funny?

Is it that topics that are potentially insulting and demeaning are inherently funnier than others? Do you like hearing people ignore those terrible politically correct things because you think they're silly and it's so good that you can ignore them? Do you just want to pretend it's not racist and racism isn't a thing that exists, and use them for proof of society moving on?

Like, there's no real reason that you need edgy jokes, is what I'm saying. It's shock humor, and while there is defensible edgy humor (Louis CK is, in general, hilarious! And he does, I think, bring issues of inequality to light. Eg: "I love being white. I could time travel to anywhere, at any time, and I'll be treated well. That's a purely white privelege."), it can often just be unneccessary and flipping the bird to political correctness. In the case that it is, it's really not defensible.

Jokes AROUND (Or involving tangentally) touchy subjects can be funny, but if you can't see the difference between using rape as a punchline, and mocking the culture that so abundantly rapes, just avoid it. (I'll post what I'm referring to once I get onto a computer. I believe it was Mitch Hedberg's joke? Someone might know it and throw a link up.)

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

Pretty sure beig a famous dead person feels like ----------------------

I'm just going to go ahead and assume those hyphens are yummy cinnamon buns. Is anyone actually interested in any kind of retort I have? I'll keep it purely on topic then, in terms of comedy:

Originally Posted by Phil

I think that Azisien's problem is less with having white privilege pointed out and more with a perceived need to walk on liberal eggshells in regards to what he makes jokes about, what shows he can say he likes, etc. Not that we actually need to protect the precious, precious shells, but, judging by the rest of his post being about CK being able to make awesome jokes about awful things, I'm pretty sure that's the issue.

I feel like you do an okay job impersonating me, actually. Maybe you aren't terribly off base.

Basically, who decides what are eggshells and what aren't? If it's the listener, then everyone is going to be different. Different people get offended by lots of different things. Being offended is not a human right, and you are not automatically in the right if something offends you. Although I frequently would out of reflex, you are not entitled to apologies and back rubs if something offended you. Obviously this is a gradient, and I'm talking at one end of it right now, the end where this eggshell stuff falls off a cliff and the world becomes a dryer place.

I firmly believe literally any topic created by the human mind is approachable, in some way, by comedy. This topic or joke can be approached in any number of ways too. In more sensitive topics, a lot of those ways might be bad. Speaking directly of Louis CK and anything I can recall of any of his stand-ups, for instance, I think he approaches all his stuff with sheer awesome.

Not every joke is acceptable. That's one of the reasons why bad jokes exist. My argument never was "no taboo." We, the listeners, can mass together and help filter the bad jokes out by not liking them as a team!

I spent a while wondering whether extremism was the right word to use way back a few posts ago. It might not be, just because it's usually a political term. But you know what, I'm sticking with it. The views generally espoused here are far off center for society, usually in a good way, and they are also pretty uncompromising. Where I generally disagree is with how uncompromising. We all seem agreed that censorship is a bad idea, so cool. But as per paragraph one, I simply don't think making any joke about X/Y/Z sensitive topic is necessarily mocking X/Y/Z sensitive topic. At this juncture, we'd probably need to move to specific examples to go further.

[Marelo]

Originally Posted by Bells

Point in question

What point?

All I'm hearing is a really awful, insensitive, unfunny joke.

[Solid Snake]

There is, however, an issue worth discussing in that a vastly disproportionate amount of the jokes comedians make -- even comedians I genuinely like, Louis CK being a great example -- are jokes at the expense of minorities. Even Louis quips about women, homosexuals, and ethnic minorities with a certain degree of predictable regularity. Not all of Louis' quips are malicious or intend overt harm against said minority groups, but in making light of stereotypes, CK nonetheless reinforces those stereotypes with negative consequences.
Louis also has a certain degree of fascination with rape -- one that may escape typical gender stereotypes but that's still patently offensive and that still makes light of a traumatizing event (he tends to cast a majority of his rape jokes, or instances of rape on his shows, in the context of women committing the act against male victims, or men committing the act against male victims, as opposed to men committing the act against female victims, for whatever reason.)

Point is, if even a registered Obama-supporting Democrat and self-avowed progressive like Louis falls victim to the notion that the best jokes are the ones that often make light of minority stereotypes or that make light of trials minorities often face, then can we really be surprised when a less tactful comedian like Tosh makes a truly obscene and devastating 'joke' that essentially implores a woman to become a rape victim? It speaks to something wrong with society's very definition of comedy as a whole, I think.

(And yes, I'm aware that Louis is one of the few comedians who actually specifically and aggressively targets white men with jokes that highlight their privilege, their power and their tendency to abuse said power. That doesn't exonerate him from his offensive comments, just as one's progressive comments on NPF should not shield one from criticism the moment one steps out of line and makes a regressive comment.)

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by Bells

Point in question

comedy = tragedy + time

Though on the video itself I am of any intro thats five seconds of nothing but flags waving

[Bells]

and that's the point... which i said before.. at least 2 times (3rd now) in this Thread. (and that is that Dane Cook sucks and that joke is terrible)

It's not about the joke itself. It's delivery, it's timing, it's setup, it's the art of the craft behind it. When well done, it can draw a laugh out of nearly any subject... but it can't be done by just about anyone. There is a social commentary behind it, there is a mindset a personal activism, a point being dressed and presented in a comedic way... it's not about shock value.

You can put Dane Cook, Tosh, Louie Ck, Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle on the stage, let them work the same material and you'll have a completely different show that ressonates in a unique way with a unique audience and some work and some suck depending on to who you ask...

and if you really want to take a look on the inner workings of that stuff, then this is something you should see...



To comedy, from the soft and tame to the wild and extreme there is a "why" behind it. That's what set apart great comedians and social commentators from hacks and jackasses.

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

There is, however, an issue worth discussing in that a vastly disproportionate amount of the jokes comedians make -- even comedians I genuinely like, Louis CK being a great example -- are jokes at the expense of minorities. Even Louis quips about women, homosexuals, and ethnic minorities with a certain degree of predictable regularity. Not all of Louis' quips are malicious or intend overt harm against said minority groups, but in making light of stereotypes, CK nonetheless reinforces those stereotypes with negative consequences.
Louis also has a certain degree of fascination with rape -- one that may escape typical gender stereotypes but that's still patently offensive and that still makes light of a traumatizing event (he tends to cast a majority of his rape jokes, or instances of rape on his shows, in the context of women committing the act against male victims, or men committing the act against male victims, as opposed to men committing the act against female victims, for whatever reason.)

To put it another way on top of my post above yours, I'm simply okay with making light of life in general. Maybe this kind of puts me in line with Aerozord. I disagree that much if any of his material is offensive, and I challenge the notion that a joke made about X/Y/Z sensitive topic at all is automatically negative reinforcement.