A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[pochercoaster]

If anyone TL;DR RPG's post there: sexism hurts everyone. The reason men aren't taken seriously when they are abused by women is because of sexist stereotypes. It is not because of feminism. Feminism benefits everyone, not just women. Edit: Sorry if it sounds like I'm speaking for rpgdemon; this was just my interpretation of what he wrote.

Originally Posted by Fenris

I just really want to say that Nique's infographic up there is absolutely sickening.

Like, holy shit, I hate my peers.

From RAINN, the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network.

[Red Mage Black]

Originally Posted by Nique

Now, I can appreciate that you are largely unaware of this stuff and have made some pretty sexist remarks as a result, but if you knew you weren't educated about these issues, why on earth would you enter such a conversation in the first place?

Both what my title says and the fact that I figured someone would be helpful enough to point me in the right direction.

Originally Posted by JustPlainGirl

This isn't something new to women. This is a reality and fear we have to live with almost every moment of our lives from puberty onward (and often earlier than that). THAT is rape culture. Rape culture is that statistics like this are a reality of life for people like me who are unfortunate enough to look like women. Rape culture is that the attitudes in that statistic are normalized in a society in which I am required, at minimum, to go to work and school with people who hold these ideas. Ideas that it's ok to force me into having sex with them, whether by manipulation of physical force, and that something I did made it ok.

That's rape culture.

Well, I've seen the stuff around about this topic, but I guess I never totally looked at the whole thing. Yeah, that sounds pretty scary to me. I'm scared of where I live around, but for a completely different reason. I just don't understand everything about the system though, which is vastly influenced by those on the inside, which mostly seems to be comprised of old men with outdated ideas and very few women.

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

rpg's incredibly long post which I did read through all the way.

Yeah man, shit sucks all the way. Its generally felt like I could never escape it. Truth be told? My oldest sister is the only one left who does it and my youngest sister is the one who makes fun of her for it. Her having kids didn't make it any better because then it comes to a point of using her 8 month old daughter as a shield to hide behind with her older sister now 5 years old was used before that. The only time I'll ever use my hands is to restrain her wrists and even then she'll call assault. Then of course before I let her go, she'll pull back and make herself fall down before claiming I pushed her. I'm not a violent guy and I admit I get mad, but I know better than to react with violence.

Originally Posted by pocheros

If anyone TL;DR RPG's post there: sexism hurts everyone. The reason men aren't taken seriously when they are abused by women is because of sexist stereotypes. It is not because of feminism. Feminism benefits everyone, not just women.





From RAINN, the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network.

Okay, I'm going to react to both your posts and I'm sorry it's last on the list, it was just a little more to respond to and your second post was last. So anyway...

1st post: I'm going to calmly state that I know that not all feminists are as horrible as the media likes to paint them and they do have worthy and agreeable causes. What I did state however, was real things that I saw and I'm pretty aware of the Straw Feminist cliche, but it wasn't what I was after. I have seen some pretty strong hatred towards men from those claiming to be 'true feminists'. I don't believe they're the true ones and I do think it's stupid that all feminists have to be put in a bad light because either the media or the few people taking the notion a little too far.

But seriously, I have seen real examples of women taking the ideals of feminism and skewing them out of control. Things that made me think, "That isn't equal rights at all, that's removing patriarchy and installing a matriarchy instead. Would it really turn out any better than what we have now?"

Yes, I did have an example of the extremes I've seen. I haven't found it yet, but as soon as I do, I'll post it. The most I can say about it now is it's a screenshot from an overly zealous forum for... hold on... 'Womyn'. Maybe I should have used the 'womyn' thing to begin with. Am I the only one who has seen that spelling before?

2nd Post:
I didn't quite mean my wording to sound as if I blamed feminism. As I said in response to your first post, I think it's a great thing.

Your charts(from both posts):
Yeah... I've heard about this before. There are all different variables for why a lot of these things don't go through and it's a pity:

1. Supposedly unreliable testimony from the victim, which makes me think, "Some women just completely shut down after the incident, then their minds in conjunction with their emotional state try to sift the memories into the back which make them harder to retrieve." Though I'm sure a psychiatrist specializing in this sort of thing could explain it better. Unfortunately, defense attorneys love to play on this.

2. Shame and Fear, in which could you blame the victim? This I think works in a few different ways. As I mentioned in my starting post to this conversation, I said that stimulation is purely a body thing and nothing to do with the mind. Some women do orgasm during rape and as I've at least heard, they trick(or get tricked) themselves into believing they might have actually enjoyed it, so they end up either dropping it or again, attorneys also play on this fact. Another for shame is 'how they dressed that night' and get psychologically tricked into believing that because of how they dressed, they deserved it. As for fear, well as we already, rape isn't about sex, it's about power and one of the ways to have power over someone is to also make them fear you. So the victim ends up threatened, something along the lines of, "If you tell anyone, I'll kill you," which usually ends up in the 'not reported' or 'dropped charges' area.

3. Not enough evidence, which is unfortunately a thing. Rape kits aren't perfect and it usually comes to the point that unless it's reported directly after the victim was raped, then there's a chance it might not even go to court.

4. Reputation, that's also a big one the attorneys love to play on. Just like your phone call scenario picture. If a woman has a reputation for sleeping around, it can mean an even harder time. (And now when I finally think about it, is where some of those notions of 'cry wolf' cases comes from. Huh, never really thought about that before.)

I believe there's also the other things you mentioned, but I'm just reporting on what I've learned.

Originally Posted by Fenris

I just really want to say that Nique's infographic up there is absolutely sickening.

Like, holy shit, I hate my peers.

So do I.

Before I end my post(ahoy, a whole lot more text), I'd like to say that I genuinely thank people for helping inform me on some of this stuff and I'd appreciate a little more if you could give it, based on my stuff above. That and one more thing. Could someone tell me more of the point of 'Slutwalk' (not sure if that's the real name of it, only going by what I've found of it)? I realize the whole thing about it is "I didn't/don't want to be raped because of what I was/am wearing". I was talking about it with someone and they brought up, "These women don't want to be judged based on what they wear and yet some of them are topless and just wearing pasties." I'm not saying I agreed with what they said, but when they pointed it out, I did find it a little odd.

I don't mean to frustrate anyone with my ignorance and inexperience on this topic, I'm just stating what I've known and trying to interpret peoples posts correctly so I can claim I'm actually learning stuff I didn't know about previously.

EDIT: (Yes, I just had to add more to a post that already had enough in it.)

I realized I hit some staircase wit after hitting the 'Post Reply' button, but luckily enough for me, there is always the 'Edit' function. Which admittedly I had before I started writing the post, but almost completely forgot about until I hit the post button.

So anyway, I had this thought hit me. I thought, isn't rape as a form of domination usually an animal thing? Granted, humans are still technically animals, but we've far surpassed other species in terms of intelligence and self awareness, so why would we do something so low as something that lower species do? It makes me think that the only difference between us and lower species is opposable thumbs or that those in the statistics are trying to make those of us who aren't horrible people to also be bad guys.

[pochercoaster]

Just to touch on the Slutwalk, which incidentally originated where I lived before moving to America: Basically there was a string of rapes at York University in Ontario. The rapists broke into dorm rooms and targeted the women inside them. A police officer visited the campus to give a talk on how to prevent rape and said “women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.” This caused an outrage and then the first Slutwalk was organized in Toronto.

I was talking about it with someone and they brought up, "These women don't want to be judged based on what they wear and yet some of them are topless and just wearing pasties." I'm not saying I agreed with what they said, but when they pointed it out, I did find it a little odd.

It seems odd because it's engrained into us to blame victims. Please consider this quote from here:

Because rape is not something a man chooses to do to someone; it‘s a natural phenomenon, like the rain or wind; sensible people will take umbrellas out with them and those who don‘t, will get rained on. Rape is presented as something women can avoid, like the rain, but those who don‘t, are a special breed of women apart from all others; something about them meant that nature picked them out to be raped; it wasn't something about the rapist that caused them to be raped, it was something about them.

Please note that this isn't to be taken literally- it's pointing out how people fundamentally misunderstand rape, thinking it's as natural as the weather and that the responsibility to prevent rape falls on the victim. And if the victim is wearing slutty clothes, or had a drink, or has a reputation for sleeping around, well they don't have an umbrella with them. And people fault victims for not having an umbrella, instead of faulting the rapist.

So anyway, I had this thought hit me. I thought, isn't rape as a form of domination usually an animal thing? Granted, humans are still technically animals, but we've far surpassed other species in terms of intelligence and self awareness, so why would we do something so low as something that lower species do? It makes me think that the only difference between us and lower species is opposable thumbs or that those in the statistics are trying to make those of us who aren't horrible people to also be bad guys.

This is a really complex topic but IMO it boils down to the fact that some people are just extremely selfish and/or lack a conscience. They only care about the rules inasmuch as they will be punished, not because of how it hurts others. Rape culture makes it easy for them to get away with rape. See antisocial personality disorder.

But seriously, I have seen real examples of women taking the ideals of feminism and skewing them out of control. Things that made me think, "That isn't equal rights at all, that's removing patriarchy and installing a matriarchy instead. Would it really turn out any better than what we have now?"

Yes, I did have an example of the extremes I've seen. I haven't found it yet, but as soon as I do, I'll post it. The most I can say about it now is it's a screenshot from an overly zealous forum for... hold on... 'Womyn'. Maybe I should have used the 'womyn' thing to begin with. Am I the only one who has seen that spelling before?

If you admit that "not all" feminists are "like that," (I would argue most are not "like that") why are anecdotes like this relevant? You are basically admitting that they are skewing the ideals of feminism therefore making them not feminists- straw feminists, even. How are not-feminists or straw feminists relevant to feminism?

Also, womyn is a great word because it's subversive.

Please consider this male privilege checklist. Also keep in mind feminism is a global thing. Just a few issues that affect women in many parts of the world:

-unequal pay
-female genital mutilation
-right to drive (in saudi arabia it's against the law for women to drive)
-right to vote
-right to abortion
-the right to pee
-massive sexualization and objectification in the media
-human trafficking
-rape
-being blamed for rape
-domestic abuse

etc.

Yes, some of these things happen to men too. However, they happen in a disproportionate amount towards women. There's a reason for that, and that's what feminism seeks to address.

The tarring of the feminists is largely perpetrated by oppressive and privileged individuals because feminism is a threat to their position of power. You can thank Rush Limbaugh for the term feminazi and popularizing the idea that feminists want to cut off men's dicks and institute a matriarchy.

[Red Mage Black]

Yeah, I can see how that talk really didn't help. It insinuated something pretty nasty and I don't blame women for getting angry about it. Again, it feels like some guys are trying to ruin it for those of us who aren't complete assholes.

Originally Posted by pocheros

If you admit that "not all" feminists are "like that," (I would argue most are not "like that") why are anecdotes like this relevant? You are basically admitting that they are skewing the ideals of feminism therefore making them not feminists- straw feminists, even. How are not-feminists or straw feminists relevant to feminism?

Also, womyn is a great word because it's subversive.

Please consider this male privilege checklist. Also keep in mind feminism is a global thing. Just a few issues that affect women in many parts of the world:

-unequal pay
-female genital mutilation
-right to drive (in saudi arabia it's against the law for women to drive)
-right to vote
-right to abortion
-the right to pee
-massive sexualization and objectification in the media
-human trafficking
-rape
-being blamed for rape
-domestic abuse

etc.

Yes, some of these things happen to men too. However, they happen in a disproportionate amount towards women. There's a reason for that, and that's what feminism seeks to address.

The tarring of the feminists is largely perpetrated by oppressive and privileged individuals because feminism is a threat to their position of power. You can thank Rush Limbaugh for the term feminazi and popularizing the idea that feminists want to cut off men's dicks and institute a matriarchy.

Okay so, I didn't have all the facts, I'll admit that. I'll also admit that I first thought 'womyn' was a word made by the (I'll call them) extremists and now I understand it just a little better. Yes, I'm still digging for the screencap I had, but I'm not having any luck. (Probably doesn't matter by now, but I'll keep looking anyway.)

Looking at that checklist, these were my thoughts(to save time, I won't list all 46 of them and I really regret reading some of the comments section):

#9. Technically does not apply to me. I can certainly choose not to have children and not, but I'm the last of my name, considering my cousin(the one besides me with the same last name) doesn't want kids. I could defy expectations, but I honestly want to honor my last name.

#10. From what I've seen and heard, if you're a man and have kids, you better take some damn responsibility. Takes two to tango, buddy.

#11. One check a month will get you called cheap and a bad father. Not paying much, if any attention to your own kids will earn you the same.

#16. This one wasn't true, at least in my family. My sisters played tee-ball and softball while I played soccer and baseball. Everyone was expected to be as active as the other.

#18. I can't really claim this one. I never really raised my hand in class, but I also didn't notice a disparity between who was called on more.

#21. No, you'll just be known to suck with money.
#22. But you'll still be known as a bad driver.
#23. That one depends on what you're speaking about. Alternatively, you could just be known as a sucky public speaker.

#30. Wrong and while it doesn't make you a shrew or a bitch, being loud and aggressive DOES make you an asshole and a prick. Especially if it's for the same reasons on the female side. No one wants to talk to an asshole.

#38. I'm not denying this mindset exists for men, but at least on my side, I'm more used to doing physical labor and I don't like making people do things they don't like. The privilege exists certainly, but I'll be damned if I don't put my mediocre labor skills to work.
#39. I kind of laughed at this, I don't know why. My parents and sisters would absolutely destroy me if I ever had kids and didn't do my share of diaper changing and feeding.
#40. This one is a little tougher to decide on. Since at this point, there will be someone male or female who will make more than I will. (HS Dropout(12th grade), no GED yet) Still, not denying the privilege exists, but I can't exactly make a ruling on this one.

42. Actually, this is a double-standard not just applying to women. Just as women are expected to be thin and beautiful, men are also expected to be handsome and well muscled. Not saying it isn't a problem on both sides though.

46. I do, but I choose to be aware. There's just nothing I can do about it until society changes as a whole.

All in all, most of these are true. Maybe some of the first ones I could argue on based on certain variables, but I won't get into that now. (As they had to do with something said in the comments that I kind of had the same thoughts about.)

And the issues you listed now: 1st, 2nd (I... don't think I want to find much more about this one, it already sounds horrible enough), 4th, 5th, 7th(hard to miss this one depending on just how ignorant you are), 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th I already knew about. The right to drive... doesn't make sense to me. There really is no difference between male and female drivers. Another false sense of superiority thing, I presume.

The right to pee... now that is really weird and that's using lighter words. Not only charging women for a basic bodily function... but less toilets? I don't know what kind of logic the men are using over there, but it aint right. All the power to the activists and I hope they make some headway, because the way those toilets were described was horrid.

For what you said about Rush Limbaugh, I've never been a big fan of him. Then again, I'm not a big fan of politicians anyway. Especially Conservatives. Fuck those guys.

[pochercoaster]

Also, here's a very educational link: Project Unbreakable NOTE THIS IS VERY SENSITIVE CONTENT.

Project Unbreakable was created in October of 2011 by Grace Brown. Grace works with survivors of sexual assault, photographing them holding a poster with a quote from their attacker. Grace has photographed over a hundred people, received over eight hundred submissions.

This should help put some insight into victim blaming and rape culture.

[Red Mage Black]

Originally Posted by pocheros

Also, here's a very educational link: Project Unbreakable NOTE THIS IS VERY SENSITIVE CONTENT.



This should help put some insight into victim blaming and rape culture.

Aha, hmm... I like the concept behind it, I can say that. It does bother me how the rapists tried to justify their actions (being the words said to the victims). I have a very... vivid and somewhat strange imagination. I look at the words the women wrote down on the cards and for some reason, I can hear some creepy voice in my head reciting the words. Some eerie, some goading, some... ugh. I hate when it does that. I can't imagine what it was like for the victims, but the words they used to take advantage of these women were either underhanded, heavy-handed or selfish. It really is frightening to know these people actually exist and this is what they do to women. Maybe once, maybe twice and probably to multiple women, but all you see during the day is some guy that might actually be your friend.

(I'll admit, it's partially one of the reasons I don't want daughters when I have children, because I might just end up becoming an overprotective mess.)

[Relm Zephyrous]

Long time reader of the thread, first time poster here. Seems like the action has died down, and I might wait until other topics of interest resurface before commenting my thoughts on it. For now though I'd simply like to ask the question of how reliable the evidence recently being thrown around is. I'll only focus on this one right now, but suffice to say that when seeing statistics I'd rather not have a dozen questions floating in my head. Worse being if other people take it for granted that it is steel cold worst case scenario.

Originally Posted by Nique

Now I look at this and it paints a very ugly picture. But I know far too much about statistics to trust anything like this at face value. So I'll just list off a few questions that would help clarify the validity, magnitude, and seriousness of the study.

Who did the study and over what population? Was this done in some community college in the slums with a 250 sample, or was this a national project? The first question looks like something that can be done over a national scale easily, but the rest are questionnaire selections that would require massive funding to actually get out that far. A quick google suggests that it was made into a book, so it at least gained some popularity. It sells for under 4 dollars though, so not 'too' much. But popularity doesn't say much about what sample these statistics used, spare that this isn't outright fabricated.

This matters simply because a number like 8% of college males have raped means a lot more if we're talking the average, or a more extreme area. This itself brings up more questions. What counts as a 'attempt'? Aggressive comments? Actual physical violence? What counts as 'rape' for this blurb? Is copping a feel rape? Or does it mean actual penetration? Again, there is a huge difference between an overeager 'boyfriend' making out a little too firmly and outright rape in a dark alleyway. Both are bad, but one is far worse than the other, and implying all are worst case really hurts integrity unless it indeed is true.

The questionnaire looks like a simple checklist of yes-no handed out. So was the same sample of people given the "force women to have sex" question as the "rape women if you could get away with it" question? And does . Furthermore, if this is a yes-no survey then the wording on the last part (83.5% argue that "some women just look like they are asking to be raped") is very misleading. There is a ballpark of difference between checking that off as a yes-no question which can be taken for granted as a 'some dress real slutty' question, and a person who would genuinely argue that a woman deserves to be raped by dressing slutty, which the current phrasing all but implies.

So to conclude, while the study no matter the context certainly suggests something bad, there is way too much ambiguity to just assume the worst case of this. I don't want to put in the energy of typing out all my questions on the other evidence put in, but I would like clarification on the issues to have the magnitude of the problem properly understood and stated.


This all said, a word on the whole dressing slutty issue. Most rape isn't done out of sexual pleasure at all, but rather out of a drive for 'power' over somebody. So hilariouslyhilariously (for a given definition of hilariously) enough the advice to not dress slutty isn't even all that important.

[Solid Snake]

The sheer amount of passive-aggressive bullshittery directed in the form of various statements indicating a degree of mistrust towards women, lambasting a grossly exaggerated form of 'feminism', looking for excuses to downplay or minimize the impact damning statistics, statements that appear at first glance to be supportive but are filled with unnecessary qualifiers that effectively enforce the untenable status quo, etc., going on in this thread is a fairly clear indictment of NPF as a community, actually reinforces and supports all the hostile actions Liz has taken up to this point that many of you are condemning, and, perhaps worst of all, ensures that NPF is something akin to a Boys' Club where a latent degree of suspicion of women should and probably ultimately will discourage women from participating here.

So, can we, I dunno, just stop that?

The statistics above are damning. Even in the 'best-case scenario' for Relm (and for women everywhere) that the statistics are inaccurate, a healthy margin of error still wouldn't make the results acceptable. Like, let's say Relm is right and the ambiguities he mentions leads to only 50% of men, as opposed to 83.5% or whatever, truly believing that "Some women dress like they're just asking to be raped."

That is still a fucking ludicrously high number. It still paints a very, VERY ugly picture.
The percentage we should be aiming for is 0%. I'm not sure if directing your energies towards demonizing the results as a 'worst case scenario' influenced by statistical error or bias is really necessary in light of what the statistics are implying; it's just contributing to the notion that NPF is filled with guys who want to ignore or downplay this, as opposed to acknowledging that this is a very serious issue and therefore creating an inclusive community where women here can feel they're treated with compassion and dignity as human beings.

EDIT: Like, I could go line by line if you wanted to and point out specific examples in several of your posts to serve as evidence of my conclusory statements above, and maybe I should, but I'm not really in the mood to attempt to educate because A: I'm not as smart as someone like Pocheros or Liz is at pointing out this bullshit, feminism isn't an area of expertise for me personally, but, more importantly, B: At this point after so many posts of the same back-and-forth ignorance and responses to said ignorance I'm pretty convinced that many of you aren't actually reading prior posts in this topic, or at least you're not really digesting what's been said, because at this point it's becoming constant repetition of the same song and dance routine.

[Relm Zephyrous]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

The statistics above are damning. Even in the 'best-case scenario' for Relm (and for women everywhere) that the statistics are inaccurate, a healthy margin of error still wouldn't make the results acceptable. Like, let's say Relm is right and the ambiguities he mentions leads to only 50% of men, as opposed to 83.5% or whatever, truly believing that "Some women dress like they're just asking to be raped."

That is still a fucking ludicrously high number. It still paints a very, VERY ugly picture.

I agree that even best case scenario this is a problem, however I'm not only pointing out that fact but also that this implicitly makes the claim that this is representative of all males. To state more clearly, my point isn't just that it might be 50% that believe that truly, it is also that 50% believe it truly when segregated to a sexist area. If so, this is kind of like doing a poll down in one of those towns that lynch gays on their opinions of gays, and then making it sound like this is representative of the actual USA population opinion.

At least how I see it, statistics that are clear cut, non-negotiable and correct are far more powerful to me than spooky statistics made to make the problem look as big as humanly possible. With an issue such as this, I personally think that it is a critical enough problem to not need inflating and that people inflating the issue actually makes it seem like they think the truth isn't damning enough. Which honestly seems insulting.


tl;dr I would much rather have something less incriminating but be able to say "This is the non negotiable truth of the matter." than open the issue up to spindoctoring.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

EDIT: Like, I could go line by line if you wanted to and point out specific examples in several of your posts to serve as evidence of my conclusory statements above, and maybe I should, but I'm not really in the mood to attempt to educate-

I'm assuming this isn't directed at me, but if it is, I 'really' would like to see that. Particularly the 'several of my posts' part.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Relm Zephyrous

I agree that even best case scenario this is a problem, however I'm not only pointing out that fact but also that this implicitly makes the claim that this is representative of all males.

I don't see why it matters in the slightest whether it's true of all males, some males, males located in the state of Florida, males located on a particular college campus, or males located in any place where they'd happen to have the opportunity to interact with females in any way, shape or form.

At least how I see it, statistics that are clear cut, non-negotiable and correct are far more powerful to me than spooky statistics made to make the problem look as big as humanly possible.

Something like 90,000 *REPORTED* rapes occur in the United States every year. The real statistics of actual rapes that occur every year are almost certainly far higher, because not every occurrence is reported.
How the fuck do you think it's not remotely misogynistic of you to pretend that these statistics are making a problem like 'rape' "look as big as humanly possible."

EDIT: Actually it's even worse than what I just typed above. There are 90,000 'recorded' rapes each year in the U.S., which does not include rapes that are not reported, and also does not include cases that are reported by victims but not recorded, because society is seriously such a gigantic misogynistic asshole that some cases of reported rape aren't sufficiently believable to be 'recorded.' /end edit

The mere fact that rape happens at the rate that it does is proof enough that these statistics aren't just 'spooky.' But the fact that your default response is to merely downplay these statistics as exaggerated has an eerie correlation to the type of logic regularly employed by men (who generally don't have to worry about being raped) to continue a culture in which rape victims lack the tools, resources and confidence to believe that their claims will hold merit in a court of law or that the perpetrator will ever see justice in the form of their asses imprisoned.

tl;dr I would much rather have something less incriminating but be able to say "This is the non negotiable truth of the matter." than open the issue up to spindoctoring.

I think the more apt explanation is that you're a guy who feels embarrassed about the earlier statistics and how it makes men look like perverted aggressors, and as a male yourself who'd "Never do such a thing" you're eager to distance yourself (and, in essence, all other men, with whom you self-identify) from said statistics, so you're looking for excuses to suggest that men (including and most especially you personally) aren't really like that.

And in doing so, you're forgetting an important thing: The statistics referenced above aren't about you, and what you may personally believe, and whether you're personally a decent person who'd never consider coercing a woman into sexual activity. They're about society. And they speak to a far broader issue than your own personal feelings on the subject and how you may want to disassociate you or your great guy friends from such generalizations.

I'm assuming this isn't directed at me, but if it is, I 'really' would like to see that. Particularly the 'several of my posts' part.

It's directed at a group of people, that happens to include you and your earlier post.