Big Bang Theory: Worst Thing on TV or Just the Unfunniest Thing on TV? Discuss.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

"That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he'd be deeply troubled."
But that's my entire point!!!

It's wrong plain and simple that our society views homosexuality as so abhorrent that for others to believe we may be homosexual is 'deeply troubling.'

Look, I know Raj isn't homosexual. It really shouldn't matter, but that's not the point of my argument. It's how Raj and others in his social network view the 'accusation' of homosexuality that's so offensive from a social justice perspective.

Ideally we'd live in a society where we didn't give a shit if someone misidentified our sexuality. Period. End of story. What this show does is it turns heterosexuality into a badge of 'normalcy' and 'honor' that Raj is only too desperate to cling to.

It'd be deeply troubling for the character who is unable to cast of the perception of homosexuality just because he likes to do non-manly things. Not because being a homosexual is a terrible thing which must be avoided at all costs. And the show never paints it like that. I mean, we can either walk on egg shells on this and say all homosexuals on TV must be painted in a light which makes it ok incase someone gets the wrong idea or we can treat them like people, the way we do straight people, and have jokes about it.

And it's not even like the humour is that offensive. Raj likes to cook, dress well and takes care of his body. Yeah, not necessarily manly-man activities to be sure, but then none of the main cast are manly men at all. When assigned roles by Sheldon, Leonard of all people becomes the muscle. It's just another area in which one of the main cast isn't a man. But homosexuality isn't treated like an accusation. In one episode Raj asks his parents to arrange a date for him and the woman that he is paired with is a lesbian looking to get her parents off her back. How is that insulting exactly? Never once in the episode is Raj disgusted that she's actually a lesbian while at the same time it highlights the social injustice that still exists in India of homosexuality being frowned upon.

On the final note, it's not just misidentified, it's constantly so. Can you imagine how soul destroying it must be to identify as something but have no one accept it? Raj doesn't cling to heterosexuality as a badge of normalcy, he just wants to get a girlfriend so his friends can stop ribbing on him. We all know of people who didn't date in high school and got made fun of and practically every one thought they were gay but a few years later got married and had families. At best you might be able to call the main cast immature but no one is treating homosexuality as wrong in the show.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

First: It's ableist. It's the same kind of shit that upsets so many people when it comes to Sheldon's potential representation of individuals with Asperger's. Exaggerating a disorder into the punching bag for a series of jokes -- so that the misconstrued disability itself is the butt of the joke -- is something that should be avoided. When this happens, Raj is stripped of humanity and simply becomes that guy whose Selective Mutism makes him unable to function. Hell, the fact that it happens solely, exclusively and consistently whenever a woman is simply present -- and the fact that alcohol always temporarily 'cures' the condition -- these are misrepresentations of what Selective Mutism actually is, done so that we can laugh at the idea that someone would have such an affliction.

Second: Bells can't simultaneously claim the 'real disorder' as a defense of Raj's representation of a 'dysfunctional' individual and suggest that "the show never pounces on his shyness...never makes light or pokes fun" at said serious disorder, then claim comedic license for the show's producers to exaggerate that disorder because doing so would be 'funny'. His positions are contradictory.

Right, so we can't show any disorder in sitcoms because people will end up misunderstanding how it works? Or do you actually think that someone with selective mutism will watch the show and think alcohol will cure them? Because I'm quite sure most people will know that it's a sitcom and alcohol doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm giving the human race too much credit but you can't treat your viewers like morons.

It feels like you really want this show to be something very serious that deals with social disorders and homosexuality (among other things) but that wouldn't be a sitcom and it wouldn't be funny. I mean, if nothing else these people aren't human. They're characters. They are characterised by certain attributes so that when we tune in we can instantly recognise a character. Humans are more complex, granted, but for a television show to depict a fully human character would require more time than a sitcom has and, again, it wouldn't be funny. I don't know about you but my life is not a barrel of laughs. An exaggerated version of me and my friends might be but not it as it currently is in it's most human state.

You'll have to talk to Bells about what Bells said.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I want to watch the same show you do, where the characters are primarily mining the depths of pop culture, nerdy and otherwise, in order to make jokes, rather than primarily relying on surface pop culture references that code as nerdy (regardless of how popular they are in actual culture). Or rather, I want that show to just finally come back on the air, since it's called Community.

I've never watched Community so I can't comment on it. But all the stuff I mentioned happens on Big Bang Theory, just maybe not as often as you'd like? I dunno, I like that the episodes have some plot and a sense of continuity.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

If it's not meant to seem ridiculous, where's the joke? Why did you bring it up as an instance of the audience laughing at Penny?

It's hilarious because she passed out on the floor during a game of twister and to wake her up Bernadette told her they ran out of wine. Not the most intelligent humour, I'll give you that, but it's a funny exaggeration of how bad her alcoholism has digressed since the break up. That doesn't destroy the fact that break up was difficult for her or is it funny because it's ridiculous that a pretty girl would binge drink or be that broken up about a relationship. It's funny because it's a situation that lends itself to comedy.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Well, we've seen Drunk!Raj and Sober!Raj, and there is indeed a difference between them. But there's also Alcohol-Proximity!Raj, who is exactly like Sober!Raj save for the fact that he can talk to girls. That's, at the very least, just lazy-ass writing. You can have a schism between Hulk and Bruce Banner, but you can't say that the default is Bruce Banner getting all of the benefits of Hulk with none of the downsides as long as he's wearing purple pants.

There's also a scale. Raj has been shown to get more of a jerkass the more he drinks. And it also depends largely on what he drinks, which lends me to believe that he drinks light beer not just to keep the calories down but perhaps it affects him less. So I guess some kind of hulk in the middle, like Grey Hulk with the brains and brawn?

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Bells had said the mute thing was an aspect of the character that was integral to Raj and that the show would never pick on this aspect of him. I was pointing out that wasn't the case. Thank you for adding another example (Howard abusing his knowledge of Raj's mutism to lay false blame on Raj, knowing that due to Raj's mutism he couldn't defend himself.)

You're welcome.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by shiney

I think we're overlooking the bigger point of this thread, which is to say, everyone who watches this show is retarded.

Now that's trollin'.

You got promise kid. You got gumption, you got moxy, you got heart. You drop by my office anytime and tell them I asked for yah.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

It'd be deeply troubling for the character who is unable to cast of the perception of homosexuality just because he likes to do non-manly things. Not because being a homosexual is a terrible thing which must be avoided at all costs. And the show never paints it like that. I mean, we can either walk on egg shells on this and say all homosexuals on TV must be painted in a light which makes it ok incase someone gets the wrong idea or we can treat them like people, the way we do straight people, and have jokes about it.

And it's not even like the humour is that offensive. Raj likes to cook, dress well and takes care of his body. Yeah, not necessarily manly-man activities to be sure, but then none of the main cast are manly men at all. When assigned roles by Sheldon, Leonard of all people becomes the muscle. It's just another area in which one of the main cast isn't a man. But homosexuality isn't treated like an accusation. In one episode Raj asks his parents to arrange a date for him and the woman that he is paired with is a lesbian looking to get her parents off her back. How is that insulting exactly? Never once in the episode is Raj disgusted that she's actually a lesbian while at the same time it highlights the social injustice that still exists in India of homosexuality being frowned upon.

On the final note, it's not just misidentified, it's constantly so. Can you imagine how soul destroying it must be to identify as something but have no one accept it? Raj doesn't cling to heterosexuality as a badge of normalcy, he just wants to get a girlfriend so his friends can stop ribbing on him. We all know of people who didn't date in high school and got made fun of and practically every one thought they were gay but a few years later got married and had families. At best you might be able to call the main cast immature but no one is treating homosexuality as wrong in the show.

Aside from the one instance you mentioned where they throw a bone to the gay community to say "hey, gay people are people too, and they have to deal with some rough shit" while still, of course, playing it up for laughs, the show really does treat being a gay man or even just a man who "lowers himself" to doing "womanly" things like it's a thing that you don't want to be. The joke is that Raj does "unmanly" things and we are supposed to laugh at him for it. The other characters make fun of him for his interests, and the punchline is often nothing more than "Raj does girl things."

That's super duper offensive. It's sexist and homophobic all at once. It's not treating gay people like people everyone else is being treated, because just being straight is never a punchline in the same way. It's a shitty message to send and a shittier one to defend.

Right, so we can't show any disorder in sitcoms because people will end up misunderstanding how it works? Or do you actually think that someone with selective mutism will watch the show and think alcohol will cure them? Because I'm quite sure most people will know that it's a sitcom and alcohol doesn't work that way. Maybe I'm giving the human race too much credit but you can't treat your viewers like morons.

What? It's misrepresenting the pain people who have the disorder in real life have to go through for cheap laughs. It insults the people who have it, which is more important than risking insulting the intelligence of people who don't.

It feels like you really want this show to be something very serious that deals with social disorders and homosexuality (among other things) but that wouldn't be a sitcom and it wouldn't be funny. I mean, if nothing else these people aren't human. They're characters. They are characterised by certain attributes so that when we tune in we can instantly recognise a character. Humans are more complex, granted, but for a television show to depict a fully human character would require more time than a sitcom has and, again, it wouldn't be funny. I don't know about you but my life is not a barrel of laughs. An exaggerated version of me and my friends might be but not it as it currently is in it's most human state.

Oh right, it's okay for them to be offensive caricatures of people who aren't straight/neurotypical/white/etc. because they aren't real people. Let's just not worry about the real people that they're supposed to be based on and have a few laughs at their expense. Awesome.

[Bells]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

There's also a scale. Raj has been shown to get more of a jerkass the more he drinks. And it also depends largely on what he drinks, which lends me to believe that he drinks light beer not just to keep the calories down but perhaps it affects him less. So I guess some kind of hulk in the middle, like Grey Hulk with the brains and brawn?

There is a scale, he is seen having a light beer most of the time he is eating out with friends, mostly at diner... i don't even drink and even i think this is far from being any sort of problem. In other situations he drinks other stuff and the effects ramp up quickly. Like the Rum Cake in one episode.

Also, this...



Only further evidence that his problems are Psycological + "It's a sitcom-itis" since Alcohol can't possible effect people THAT fast

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Aside from the one instance you mentioned where they throw a bone to the gay community to say "hey, gay people are people too, and they have to deal with some rough shit" while still, of course, playing it up for laughs, the show really does treat being a gay man or even just a man who "lowers himself" to doing "womanly" things like it's a thing that you don't want to be. The joke is that Raj does "unmanly" things and we are supposed to laugh at him for it. The other characters make fun of him for his interests, and the punchline is often nothing more than "Raj does girl things."

That's super duper offensive. It's sexist and homophobic all at once. It's not treating gay people like people everyone else is being treated, because just being straight is never a punchline in the same way. It's a shitty message to send and a shittier one to defend.

They also make fun of Penny for doing man-things. Amy is casually bi-sexual or at the very least appreciates the beauty of both men and women which is played for laughs because she has an sexually ignorant boyfriend, no one even knows what Sheldon is, as they joked about him reproducing in various ways in an early episode, Howard's promiscuous and often overtly creepy attempts to pick up women is the butt of jokes for him and Leonard is clingy and needy with women. This is all stuff we are supposed to laugh at but the homosexuality is treated like a bigger deal.

I mean, geez, it's not like they throwing rotton fruit at him or kicking him out of the group for not being man enough. That kind of macho bull doesn't even exist in this show. Its gentle ribbing and every character gets it from some direction. Raj's isn't even always that he likes cooking and looking after himself, sometimes it's a mutism, sometimes it's his Indian background. It's like none of you have ever annoyed a friend simply because it's fun to annoy him.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

What? It's misrepresenting the pain people who have the disorder in real life have to go through for cheap laughs. It insults the people who have it, which is more important than risking insulting the intelligence of people who don't.

In so far as if the option is slightly misrepresenting it for a joke ( I wouldn't call it cheap laughs since it's a part of the character that is continually and routinely investigated, such as the occasions when he has mentioned using meditation or experimental drugs) or treating it with the most absolute detailed honesty. I mean you could take the third option and take it out but I'm not convinced it's that insulting. Someone with selective mutism might even find the alcohol solution funny because it wouldn't work. But you'd have to ask someone who has it.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Oh right, it's okay for them to be offensive caricatures of people who aren't straight/neurotypical/white/etc. because they aren't real people. Let's just not worry about the real people that they're supposed to be based on and have a few laughs at their expense. Awesome.

It is if you're going to have caricatures of straight, neurotypical white people too because they also aren't people. What real people are they based on? Did I miss where this was based on a true story? It's fiction. They are characters. The closer you get to creating a character that is completely human the further away you go from dramatic and entertaining story telling. That isn't to say it won't be interesting but it's interesting in the way James Joyce might be interesting rather than say Adrian Mole.

[Kim]

Apparently BBT has thrown around the word tranny for laughs so I'm gonna go ahead and say case closed fuck everyone responsible for this abomination.

[Bells]

Unless of course all characters of fiction must be perfect... but that would upset the perfect people.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Bells

Unless of course all characters of fiction must be perfect... but that would upset the perfect people.

At this point in time, you're arguing that it's okay for a show to contribute to the oppression that leads to one in twelve trans women being murdered, our identity being reduced to "chicks with dicks", and a hateful, unaccepting society that drives many of us to suicide.

The show itself, as written by its creators, has chosen to do so to make an audience laugh, all in pursuit of material gain. The creators value money over the lives of trans women.

I wan't to make perfectly sure that this is the avenue you want to go, Bells.

Do you really think this is excusable?

[shiney]

But Kim. It's for the sake of comedy and network share. Do you not live in America? Do you not live in the most pure example to date, in the existence of humanity, of unfettered capitalism? Do you not respect the ideals this country was founded on.

If I were a betting man I would suspect you think "human lives" are worth more than "profit" for which lol dick