The Death Penalty

[The Devil Himself]

According to the Bible, however, it isn't our right to judge. Right? Well, as far as I'm concerned, a white lie is as sinful as murder and the death penalty is as sinful as judging a SAT test score. So I'm discarding that evidence, especially since you can't preach to a non-Christian anyway. So find another argument.

Then what was the point of that paragraph? And can you explain your logic on a small lie being as "sinful" as murder? Bringing religion into non-religious debates never work.

What do you mean it's disgusting and inhuman anyway? Is it better to lock people up like animals or slaughter 'em? You tell me. I was thinking that we could cut costs by feeding prisoners the free meat off death row.

Which is exactly one of the major conflicts of the Death Penalty topic. The fate of a criminal's punishment lies in the opinion of a person--usually a judge. If the judge is right-wing, they'll usually sentence him to death. And of course, it's the opposite with left-wings usually.

As far as innocents, well, that happens. Innocents will spend 50 years in jail too. Dunno if I'd rather die or spend 50 years in jail... Either way, I can't allow that to deter me. Not when so many innocents are dying or having their lives ruined outside of the court systems. The percentage of innocents on death row has to be small anyway. Isn't it?

What exactly are you trying to say when you say, "As far as innocents, well, that happens"?

And If you were innocent, yet convicted of a crime punishable by death, would you rather die or spend 50 years in jail with hope that the real suspect is caught within that time period?

As for the percentages, there aren't much statistics available about those since everyone on death row is charged guilty.

Your argument to me seems more religious and sadistically based.

[Dona Maria]

Actually krylo, I'm probably more cold-hearted than you on this one. You see, I think the death penalty is too easy for some people. One guy mass murders 20 people and you want to give him a painless little prick in the arm to kill him? How is that a punishment? He probably ACCEPTED death and therefor we were doing him a service.

What's my idea?

Well sir, I'm glad you asked (even if you didn't). You see, the main problem with the death penalty is that it's supposed to be a PENALTY but a corpse doesn't know its dead. Religious issues aside, once you kill someone, they decompose and they become crude organic matter, so how are you teaching them a leason? So! With that in mind I propose my "Simulated Death" program. If someone is convicted of a crime worthy of death, instead of having them sit on death row for several years eating up millions of tax-payer's dollars and waiting an appeal, they will immediatly be entered into my program. The first thing that happens is that their 7th vertebrea is severed so they loose all feeling and function of their body. Then, their eardrums are ruptured so they can't here anything. Next, a feeding tube is placed into their stomach and a catheter into...everything else. Then, their tounge and teeth are removed in the off chance that those might provide some type of stimulation. Now, they are suspended and locked in a dark room where they will never see another being or the light of day again.

Viola! Simulated Death. And I'm sure that it will be more of a deterrant if video cameras are in the rooms and the tapes are sent to highschools as a type of "shock" treatment. When people learn what happens to them if they break the law, I can be almost positive that no one would want to end up like that, therefor less death penalty-assured crimes.

Peace out.

[Martyr]

Originally Posted by krylo

How does it do that, exactly? You kill a murderer today, and a new one pops up tomorrow. You aren't cleansing anything... being a killer isn't a genetic disposition. Granted, being a socio/psychopath is, but we never kill them, do we? We just send them to mental facilities. All you're doing by killing people is the same exact thing that they did to get into prison in the first place.

Your entire arguement circles around the idea that life sucks and people die anyway. Given that logic, then what's the point of any criminal justice? People get killed and raped regardless of it, why bother trying to stop it? Or are you thinking, people die anyway, might as well help it along? Don't bring a horribly cynical and pessimistic view into an arguement like this, it's counter-productive, and it's a horribly weak arguement. Just because YOUR life sucks and you'd rather die than be locked up and try to appeal doesn't mean the rest of us would.

Not that people die and we should help it along. My argument circles around that we all die, and maybe I'd sacrifice an innocent or two to save more.
I think that this stuff is genetic. Somebody who kills in cold blood will be more likely to do it again. Definately if he gets away with it.
Personally, I have no idea where to begin reforming a person. I think that education is the key, and I think that people who are already in jail are already beyond that help.
Therefore, death, iun my opinion is better than letting somebody out later. I'm not in jail yet, for example. If I kill a man, it'll be self defense or an act of vengeance. What argument will I have if it's the latter? If I killed somebody, then it would show that I would do it again, yes?
Besides, I've never heard of a death row case where the person accused would be any better to society alive than dead. Considering the ciorcumstances.

As for what else it was you said, uh, I forgot it, hold on.
Oh, right. I guess I have no evidence. The fact that crime continues is probably more the fault of bad policing than the ineffectivity of death penalty as a deterrent. But, though your arguments are strong, I'd like to see the crime rates under those circumstance. Regardless of that it existed, I bet crime is worse in the US where you can get off punishment so easily.

Edit: And Devil, um, the religion comment was an attempt to halt the dude who spoke on info gained from some religion class. As far as me thinking religiously instead sadistically, uh... Why should I be sadistic when we're talking about the law?
There's always innocent casualties. There are probably more innocents harmed in this circumstance because we're dealing with people who want to harm innocents from the get-go. Innocents happen. That's the way it works. I don't have to explain any crap about not stopping for fear of sacrifice.

[The Devil Himself]

Originally Posted by DonaMaria

If someone is convicted of a crime worthy of death...

Now, how would you decide that?

Originally Posted by Martyr

Not that people die and we should help it along. My argument circles around that we all die, and maybe I'd sacrifice an innocent or two to save more.

What if you were the innocent?

I think that this stuff is genetic. Somebody who kills in cold blood will be more likely to do it again. Definately if he gets away with it.
Personally, I have no idea where to begin reforming a person. I think that education is the key, and I think that people who are already in jail are already beyond that help.

Do you have any proof that rehabilitation doesn't work?

Therefore, death, iun my opinion is better than letting somebody out later. I'm not in jail yet, for example. If I kill a man, it'll be self defense or an act of vengeance. What argument will I have if it's the latter? If I killed somebody, then it would show that I would do it again, yes?
Besides, I've never heard of a death row case where the person accused would be any better to society alive than dead. Considering the ciorcumstances.

Most crimes usually punishable by death have a life sentence.
Also, just because you kill someone out of an act of vengeance and show you do it again, doesn't mean every convicted murderer would.

As for what else it was you said, uh, I forgot it, hold on.
Oh, right. I guess I have no evidence. The fact that crime continues is probably more the fault of bad policing than the ineffectivity of death penalty as a deterrent. But, though your arguments are strong, I'd like to see the crime rates under those circumstance. Regardless of that it existed, I bet crime is worse in the US where you can get off punishment so easily.

FBI Data says that murder rates are lower in states without the death penalty.

[FunnyLooking]

Great idea DonaMaria, except for the fact that would probably make them MORE psychotic... and that sounds like what the government did in the game Hell: A Cyberpunk Thriller. Oh btw, great game.

<One guy mass murders 20 people and you want to give him a painless little prick in the arm to kill him?>

Does it really matter how you kill somebody? I mean, the only real difference is how disgusting we're willing to be, and I don't think a lot of people want to be that disgusting. Once they're dead, they're dead. It doesn't matter how much pain they were in, or how gruesome their death was, because they're dead.

Sure, hitching up a rapist's balls to a car battery seems like poetic justice, but... well... actually, sounds like a good idea to me. Death Penalty is a different issue though, because it costs too much and it's permanent.

<The fact that crime continues is probably more the fault of bad policing than the ineffectivity of death penalty as a deterrent.>

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure murder-crime is higher in places with the death penalty. Bah, don't take my word for it, somebody find some sources...

And Martyr, you say that jail for life is worse than death? I disagree entirely, but you think that's the case, then wouldn't jail for life work better as a deterrant?

[Krylo]

Well... only half of me is cold-hearted, remember... and that half really likes that idea, and has thought of death as too easy quite a few times. The other half though, which, again, is the one I tend to side on in this issue, can't help but think of innocent people that are sentenced to such things. That is a lot worse than actually dying, regardless of if you think there's an after life, and just think of sentencing an innocent person to that... it'd be even worse, because you find out that they are innocent, and they're still alive in that place being punished in the worst imaginable way for something they didn't do. And you can't undo it, because you've severed their spine and removed body parts. Ouch. And, if you really think that would work as deterrent you've never seen a picture of a man hanging... or read about how they'd die... A lot of the time, their necks wouldn't break, and they'd hang and swing... slowly choking todeath, either on their own tongue, or the rope. Their eyes would bulge out, and they'd claw at the rope furtively (if their hands weren't tied, as often they weren't, because this was often mob justice), until they'd stop, all their pain and struggling finally brought to an end. And this was relatively humane. Shall I go on to describe what happened to people that were burned at the stake, or crucified for their crimes? Did you know that crucifixition, as the romans were so fond of, didn't kill in and of itself? No, you could live on a cross crucified for days as the crows pecked at your still living body, and the nails slowly tore through your flesh from your own weight. Not to mention the initial pain of the nails being driven through in the first place... and eventually you'd die of dehydration. And, I don't know if you've ever been dehydrated, but it comes with lots of vomiting, headaches, over all sickness, and just imagine retching and vomiting with nails driven through your arms and legs. These weren't private executions, these were out there for anyone to see, and they didn't deter people.

[Dona Maria]

actually, describing pain and suffering to me does nothing to stop my blood lust. they killed, i will make them suffer. but to be honest, the romans didn't need too much in the way of evidence to condem someone to crusifiction. Usuing the same court system today will be fine in issuing simulated death.

[The Devil Himself]

Edit: And Devil, um, the religion comment was an attempt to halt the dude who spoke on info gained from some religion class. As far as me thinking religiously instead sadistically, uh... Why should I be sadistic when we're talking about the law?
There's always innocent casualties. There are probably more innocents harmed in this circumstance because we're dealing with people who want to harm innocents from the get-go. Innocents happen. That's the way it works. I don't have to explain any crap about not stopping for fear of sacrifice.

Knowing this, you'd still support the Death Penalty? Honestly, I'd put convicted murderers in jail for some time until they're proven innocent instead of putting people suspected of something "worthy of the death sentence" and accidently killing innocents.

[FunnyLooking]

Even though it's cliche`, think of the children. It'd be pretty unnerving to have public executions with such gruesome effects. Don't give that, "Oh, it'll teach the kids a lesson". We already have enough problems with psychological disorders, okay?

Besides, what the hell is the point in making it more disgusting anyway? You can't be in a situation worse than death. Not existing is the worst possible state for anything. Period.

[Krylo]

The court system of today isn't perfect either, though... lots of innocents are punished all the time, and lots of guilty people are let go. Especially if they have money, or don't have money, respectively. The court system of today can be bought. Back then it couldn't. Now... the Romans didn't need much to condemn someone, but that doesn't hurt my arguement. I wasn't comparing simulated to them... what I was saying was that if you're thinking it's going to deter someone, then why didn't those activities. The romans not needing a lot of evidence would make it a greater deterrent, because it didn't matter how careful you were, if they had any reason to suspect you above someone else, you were getting crucified, and they'd probably toss anyone else they figured half guilty in there with you, or just toss them in the arena to make sure they got the killer. You didn't get off very easily, because they didn't care about punishing innocents along with it.