Mafia: NPF edition

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

And I've already given example after example about just what I meant by that and how I see it effecting the game and frankly I'm done with it. After everything I've said you always repeat like just saying it over and over is going to make it true. We know you don't agree with it a counter point would be nice and not to the intiatial statement but to everything after it. After all I can't be expected to fully explain every detail of my thought process in my first few posts on the subject.


See above. I've fully explained what I meant and how I would act. You've ignored it and went straight back to the intial statement like its a fact I can disprove. Well its not its pretty much an opinion with factual bits. True numbers do win the game but you've repeatedly ignored all attempts at me explaining myself frankly its getting old and rude. Pressure is good to a point but this is getting to be to much. There are no more answers for you here.

Alright, I'll leave the point be. It is your play style and I'd be a hypocrite just to call you wrong for doing it. Most of this has been a test to see if you could be decisive enough when it matters(Like being under pressure ).

No see I disagreed with you very definition of bandwagoning and even given your definition waiting as long as possible isn't definetaly without exception bandwagoning.

I don't see where there is to disagree on its definition. You're going to wait until the end and go along with the most believeable argument? That's a badnwagon vote if I could define it, Sith. You need to form your opinion before it's too late. And we'll get to why...

What about after the lynch hmm?

By then the person is, um, dead? Right? Just making sure here. Because, you know, it's a bit too late to judge your actions at that point because they're already forsaken

Its not like everything I said before a vote suddenly disappears after the vote. You should know that better than anyone so that gives me pause to think about your motivation.

Again, you don't give them time to be able to evaluate you BEFORE THE PERSON DIES! For someone so keen to the slow and steady, waiting for the last second to throw their vote in, without enough time to matter to let others consider it, seems hasty to me.

Why does my reasoning and stuff suddenly change when I put that little bit of bold text up? Just because I don't vote doesn't mean I won't be presenting cases. Why should I vote then change me mind and unvote then perhaps vote again when I can do that all in my head without that little bold text? If I wait till the last minute guess what all view points that could be expressed will have been expressed. Now you could think I'm just not going to say anything but I already stated a few times how I'll be pointing out flaws on bothsides. I'll add to that now with I'll also be presenting my own cases I didn't think I needed to say that though. I'd be doing that regardless of those little bolded text section with vote by them.

But with the vote may come flaws on your part. Votes create pressure and demand response. Make you focus more as it puts more on the line. That little bolding does make a difference, whether you believe it or not.

Ok so I said out for blood, bad choice of words, but you've done similar to me and I'd wager you haven't worded everything as well as you'd like. Heck you just did it up there with the whole bandwagoning thing. It could be an honest mistake and it couldn't. Its no reason to call a person an outright liar.

Yeah, words are hard to put together perfectly all the time, though I still stand by my bandwagoning point.

Again how is it that people magically can't pick apart me reasons after the lynch? This is perhaps the largest logical fallacy I've seen you make. There is seriously no logic there.

Because when someone's life is on the line, it's better to get the points out of the way first, so they don't lose their life in vain because you didn't want to vote yet. It's not a fallacy, because there's that one major difference. That one's life. For someone who preached the similar earlier, you're sure as heck not abiding now.

Lives ARE important, even if they can be sacrificed for the good at times.

Mafai smokescreen? I'd say the chances are good at least in part. You above all else should know that you need to take your time and devote your full attention to the game. Heck we just went over the importance of wording with Roy. Why would you suddenly do something so dangerous? This way you can just play off anything I manage to pick out as you being distracted.

I know, I know. I'm sorry, but there are times when I feel the need to respond even when I'm busy. Forgive me or not, I like to give fast answers to give people more time to think.

Hey while we are on mafia smoke screens this whole exchange between me and you is another good one. Accusations are a great way to focuse attention on someone. Along with that is when responding to accusations it gives you lots of material to reword and play with. Above that it makes your target look defensive and thus guilty. So now I really really suspect you of something.

Go ahead and suspect. I'm drilling you for fun, answers and to have a catalyst in the game. EVERYTHING can be a smokescreen, you know that, right? Stating a smokescreen can be a smokescreen and so on and so forth. A big twisted plan that may never stop, but you know it does at one point and you'll never know where.

Add to that you potentially asked that cult question to make it seem like you didn't know if the cult could act and thus deflect attention from you potentially being the cult leader.

I seriously THOUGHT the CL got their turn on night one, as that parts them from the rest of the town, instead of just being as perfectly in the dark as normal townies. You're taking something that NO ONE is sure of, aside from one maybe two(If the CL got to draft) people, Sith.

You're saying that my LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS A WEAPON NOW. That's borderlining ignorant and has no backing...

I'm still waiting for Garud to answer me on what happened on night one and maybe bold text will get his attention, because it's becoming very vital and he ignored me completely the first time.

You know what I'm going to make you happy and vote for someone. So here goes: Vote:Mesden

Hooray? I was going to remove my vote about halfway down this thing, but then you started throwing out that everything I'm doing must be an evil veil of scumminess, where as any single little thing can be that in this game.

Heck, I'd unvote you now, but you seem to be in the kind of mindset that would turn that into, "It's a veil! She's unvoting herself just to look good! Scum!"

And then you can turn that into, "She's keeping her vote on me too look calm under pressure with how she just stated what she said!"

And you can shape that into, "She's saying that..."

See my point here?

Want me to throw some examples out, then ask, as this is just bordering ignorant if it weren't for the fact that everything's possible.

[dojindog]

/joke While I'm all for skinning cats... I was gonna make a point there but I'm not sure what it. /joke

I'm not trying to say that a certain playstyle is evil I'm just trying to say depending on the situation different playstyle's are more effective like today for example first day needs to be aggresive make 'em sweat make them think that they don't care who gets in your way you ARE going to find them and make them pay. The days afte rare when you can relax look at the evidence and see who slipped up and how but, that's just my 1 A.M. opinion.

Edit: Apologies for the edit but Mesden check page 3 he said it there and he had the story on page 2

[Sithdarth]

Ahem.

Plus he stated pretty clearly in the post where he requested rolls who got to act. He's since edited that or I'd cite it too.

Ok now I see you vote soon because you want to give the accused person time to refute the accusation. Sorry but I don't agree that voting and pressuring a person to the point they want to shatter always gets the best results nor that it will always force the person to be honest. You might even force them into a mistake that'll lynch them. Once again you state your opinions on play style like they are some kind of bible of facts when they aren't. Just because I don't vote and point out flaws and both sides does not mean I can't level accusations. Accusations that, I know this is a great shock, the accused person can respond to.

I don't see where there is to disagree on its definition. You're going to wait until the end and go along with the most believeable argument? That's a badnwagon vote if I could define it, Sith.

Because that's the only possible reason to wait that long despite everything else that I've said. Also, are you now saying that going with the most believable argument is automatically bandwagoning. I said I'd weigh the evidence and do what I thought was best, ie go with the best case. The time I do that at has no effect on if I'm just going with the flow. Somehow you translated all of that into "Well I'm just going to wait and go with the crowd." If I weigh both cases and come up with a choice that is neither of the two that are tied guess what I'll go that way. I never said anything about just going with the crowd which is what bandwagoning implies. So I don't like voting soon because I like to have all information before coming to a final decision. (Also, part of it is the odd hours I keep and that infromation may come to light and the deadline pass while I am sleeping.)

But with the vote may come flaws on your part. Votes create pressure and demand response. Make you focus more as it puts more on the line. That little bolding does make a difference, whether you believe it or not.

OPINION. I'd argue I would have argued the exact same after all this proding if you had voted for me in the begining or not. Further I already mentioned how it could horribly backfire. I'll go on to say how it could not work at all. There is nothing to say they person you accuse just won't ignore it and remain composed. I mean you've made it no secrete you vote to get a rise out of people so now that mafiates know that a vote from you may be just to get their panties in a twist.

Go ahead and suspect. I'm drilling you for fun, answers and to have a catalyst in the game.

I thought my harsher and harsher tone was starting to clue you in that this was becoming annoying as all hell. Annoying a person is not a way to get an honest answer. Nor is it a way to get their best and most coherent argument. If anything it sets a person up to fail, heck its a police interrogation tactic which has been known to lead to false confessions. Again, I disagree that stressing the hell out of a person is the best way to get a clear argument. Hell I'm guilty of intentional pushing buttons in the discussion forum just to make my opponent look like an idiot.

Heck, I'd unvote you now, but you seem to be in the kind of mindset that would turn that into, "It's a veil! She's unvoting herself just to look good! Scum!"

And then you can turn that into, "She's keeping her vote on me too look calm under pressure with how she just stated what she said!"

And you can shape that into, "She's saying that..."

I've repeated stated my rabid dislike for circular logic and demonstarted my ability to find it. I see no reason to suspect I'd fall into the trap now except maybe how horrible annoyed I am now. Also, news flash here, I'm human and I have emotions you can't consistantly attack my character for that long without getting a rise out of me. You know what happens then? I start to make slightly less sense and I start throwing out logical reasoning in favor of just attacking. Which of course is my whole point about this "pressure is good" thing, because I don't see it that way. Yet you continue to state it like its some kind of fact and the only proper way to play the game. I'm sorry but I'd rather take a different tack and offer a different viewpoint because I realize not everyone can keep cool and collected under constant attack.

[dojindog]

A facade is difficult to maintain under extended periods of mental duress that's the foundation upon (to my understanding) Mesden's questioning is based. If you are innocent then you should have no problem whatsoever dealing with Mesden's doubt in your character. Even if she says wasn't serious at first that is how it's working out (in my opinion).

[Sithdarth]

A facade is difficult to maintain under extended periods of mental duress that's the foundation upon (to my understanding) Mesden's questioning is based. If you are innocent then you should have no problem whatsoever dealing with Mesden's doubt in your character. Even if she says wasn't serious at first that is how it's working out (in my opinion).

That's all well and good but it doesn't mean an innocent person won't get pissed as hell at you for repeatedly telling them they are guilty. Frankly I find it incrediablly annoying. So annoying I'd rather drop the logic and just start yelling. Its easy and seductive to just think oh he's angry so he must have something to hide. Problem his pretty much as many innocent people get mad after this as guilty people and as many guilty people stay calm as innocent people, or there abouts. So really its all a matter of how you want to read things and personally I'd rather not prod someone into killing themselves.

[Truce]

Seriously. Mesden, Sithdarth, you're both saying that "My way is better", but what have either of you contributed thus far? Don't say conversation, because so far most of it has just been between the two of you, and you're both just repeating yourselves as far as I can tell.

Remember that in the end it's results. You cannot say that either of your methods are better until we see them. You want to protect the townies Sithdarth-do it. Ignore Mesden's attacks, because I know that if you want to you can. Mesden, you want to be aggressive, sure, but don't do it to the point where it erupts into a flame war, which is what this is leading to and even Sithdarth can see. Even if this was a test to see if he can be decisive under pressure, playing with someone's emotions just to see how far they can go isn't good for us in the long run-both as a game and as a forum.

Agree or argue with me or someone else about something other than "This method is better". Tell me I'm wrong about Roy, or tell me I'm right, or find something entirely new completely. Just talk about something different.

And Dojin, Sithdarth's completely right in his response to you. Even innocent men lose patience, perhaps even faster than people who have something to hide.

EDIT: Also Mesden, Garud did answer your question.

Originally Posted by GARUD

Mafia Kill, PO investigate, BG protect. That was all. No cult last night, nor SK or Vig. Hope it clears things up.

I'm glad you guys are discussing the game like polite human beings. Remember to keep things civil people.

Like I said, the argument with Sithdarth has made you two contribute less than most of the active members. Even IC's quick acknowledgement of my questioning of Neyo showed that he had consideration of things other than his own agenda.

[Mesden]

Edit: Ninja'd by Ecurt. Heh, he makes me look like an ass right before I apologize, Go figure?

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

Ahem.

Bah, my mistake. I thought the cult would get a draft sheerly off the fact it would seperate them from townies on day one. Guess I was wrong. Also, sorry for missing it. Must have lost track in the plethora of posts.

Plus he stated pretty clearly in the post where he requested rolls who got to act. He's since edited that or I'd cite it too.

Yeah, I saw that and couldn't remember exactly what it was, so I was asking for verification.

Ok now I see you vote soon because you want to give the accused person time to refute the accusation. Sorry but I don't agree that voting and pressuring a person to the point they want to shatter always gets the best results nor that it will always force the person to be honest.

I don't want people to "Shatter". I've been doing this for many games and rarely do people blow up. They just keep about their business. I'm not in the intention of angering anyone as it's a game and I've had my fair share of that before.

You might even force them into a mistake that'll lynch them. Once again you state your opinions on play style like they are some kind of bible of facts when they aren't. Just because I don't vote and point out flaws and both sides does not mean I can't level accusations. Accusations that, I know this is a great shock, the accused person can respond to.

I've been in a lot of games. Many a time when I just accuse someone, they won't acknowledge it. This irks me, so to guarantee a response, I vote. It may seem brash, but it DOES get an answer. I don't want people to slip and if you're innocent, there's really not much you can slip that you can't recover, as long as you can keep your cool and respond intelligently. (IE: Psycho Mantis and Nique)

Because that's the only possible reason to wait that long despite everything else that I've said. Also, are you now saying that going with the most believable argument is automatically bandwagoning. I said I'd weigh the evidence and do what I thought was best, ie go with the best case.

Sith, more often than naught, there isn't more than one case to choose between. It's about 70%/30%. 70 being the times where most of the town agrees and 30 being where there is even a reasonable amount of doubt amongst the town.

The time I do that at has no effect on if I'm just going with the flow. Somehow you translated all of that into "Well I'm just going to wait and go with the crowd." If I weigh both cases and come up with a choice that is neither of the two that are tied guess what I'll go that way. I never said anything about just going with the crowd which is what bandwagoning implies.

Eh, you're being a bit more literal than I am. Either way(If there is more than one case) you're siding with a group at the end. It's a point of perspective, so I'll let our differing view on what bandwagoning in this case is, though I still don't like your way of it, but I'll not condemn for opposing views only(In this case).

So I don't like voting soon because I like to have all information before coming to a final decision. (Also, part of it is the odd hours I keep and that infromation may come to light and the deadline pass while I am sleeping.)

You and your "Sleeping." =P. Again, last minute just doesn't sit well with me, no matter how much thought you put into it. Again, conflicting ideals.

OPINION. I'd argue I would have argued the exact same after all this proding if you had voted for me in the begining or not.

How am I supposed to know that? My experience told me that voting was sure fired to get a diligent response, and as far as I can tell, it has.

Further I already mentioned how it could horribly backfire. I'll go on to say how it could not work at all. There is nothing to say they person you accuse just won't ignore it and remain composed.

There isn't. But this is how I judge things and saying I'm wrong for it was like me saying you were wrong for being neutral. I accepted the playstyle, though I didn't like. Agree to disagree now Sith?

I mean you've made it no secrete you vote to get a rise out of people so now that mafiates know that a vote from you may be just to get their panties in a twist.

See, now couldn't that backfire on them?

I thought my harsher and harsher tone was starting to clue you in that this was becoming annoying as all hell. Annoying a person is not a way to get an honest answer. Nor is it a way to get their best and most coherent argument. If anything it sets a person up to fail, heck its a police interrogation tactic which has been known to lead to false confessions. Again, I disagree that stressing the hell out of a person is the best way to get a clear argument. Hell I'm guilty of intentional pushing buttons in the discussion forum just to make my opponent look like an idiot.

Yes, I know, and I appologized for it. We're at odd ends and agreeing to disagree sounds mighty nice and calming right now.

I've repeated stated my rabid dislike for circular logic and demonstarted my ability to find it. I see no reason to suspect I'd fall into the trap now except maybe how horrible annoyed I am now.

It's not a good trap if I say it outloud, is it? I don't like circular logic either, but that's what your accusations can be related with, as I said. It's kind of tasteless and I don't like eliciting anger for no reason, so I'm getting to where I've been leading up to.

Also, news flash here, I'm human and I have emotions you can't consistantly attack my character for that long without getting a rise out of me.

I had this problem all too recently and again, I'm sorry. It's a game, anger need not apply.

You know what happens then? I start to make slightly less sense and I start throwing out logical reasoning in favor of just attacking.

I know, I know. I can relate all too well and I fear we're both somewhat in the wrong for constantly bickering on such things as how we view the game should be played.

Which of course is my whole point about this "pressure is good" thing, because I don't see it that way. Yet you continue to state it like its some kind of fact and the only proper way to play the game. I'm sorry but I'd rather take a different tack and offer a different viewpoint because I realize not everyone can keep cool and collected under constant attack.

Understood. I've apologized enough and it's time I Unvote:Sithdarth because this bickering has gotten out of hands. Agree disagree, fellow player?

[dojindog]

Why would the innocent person be mad at being told he/she was guilty they know it's not true. Just because someone decides to tell me that the sky is green why should it bug me if I have already chosen to tell them no it's blue you are wrong and they persist it's not my problem. It is your choice wether you reply to this post or not. I would take that as your defense. I don't know that other people would but, why should you worry if they vote to ban you and you're innocent you just showed the people who voted to ban you that they were wrong and should be more careful. Well anyway it's getting to be bedtime for me so I'm gonna go saw some logs g'night!

Edit: Woohoo double ninja'd

[Truce]

Well, it's in the edit of my last post, but Mesden kinda ninja'd my edit...if that makes sense.

Anyway...

Originally Posted by GARUD

Mafia Kill, PO investigate, BG protect. That was all. No cult last night, nor SK or Vig. Hope it clears things up.

I'm glad you guys are discussing the game like polite human beings. Remember to keep things civil people.

EDIT: And the worst part is that I was ninja'd before that by Sithdarth. Heh.

EDIT 2: Ahem. Because it's bothering me so much...

Dojin, let's say I call you an idiot, over and over and over. Now, you know that's not true, but do you care that I'm saying it? Hell yes, and that's not the worst I could say. Pride is a powerful thing you know, so much so that Newb and I were pissed at each other for some time after a misunderstanding in another Mafia game.

Do I want to see that kind of thing happen again, here?

No, nor anywhere else, either.

EDIT 3: Heh, I should've noted this before. Mesden, I'm glad you've calmed down enough now, and I know you started writing your post before I posted mine ^^.

[Sithdarth]

Well I was going to say all sorts of things but I guess it boils down to this:
NINJA'D

All kidding aside I'll Unvote: Mesden because really it was motivated far to much by annoyance. However, that doesn't mean I won't still be watching. Well everyone else pretty much said everything else so that's that for now.