11-25-2006, 04:59 AM | #1 | ||
for all seasons
|
Big Thread O' Iraq (with bonus Iran!)
White House confirms Bush-Maliki to meet
(AFP) Quote:
Bush, Maliki to meet as Iraqi deaths hit new high By Claudia Parsons Quote:
Baghdad is so unsafe that it's own supposed President has to conduct his meetings in another country? If they were looking for a way to make Maliki look like a puppet, then congratulations. In that vein, Sadr's played his card in a pretty timely manner, in that whatever Maliki does, it'll be like hanging a sign over his office indicating who really runs the Iraqi government, whether that person is Sadr or Bush. That bit about the "comprehensive review" of Bush's total lack of an Iraq policy would be hilarious, if it weren't for all the people dying. I dunno. Your thoughts?
__________________
check out my buttspresso
Last edited by Fifthfiend; 11-25-2006 at 05:05 AM. |
||
11-25-2006, 06:46 AM | #2 |
Oh, jeez, this guy again?
|
I don't think I need to say this, as it should be apparent, but the situation in Iraq is so unbelievably screwed up right now, I often don't even feel like I know how I should react anymore. The country is decending into outright civil war, and I really don't think there's anything anyone can do about.
I don't think it's a bad thing for two leaders of a foreign power to meet, though; Sadr's apparent assertation that it's wrong to do so (or at least if the other foreign power is America) shows an unwillingness to work with the international community that is disappointing, if not particularly surprising. I don't think Maliki meeting with Bush is necessarily a sign that Maliki is Bush's puppet (although given my opinion of Bush, I wouldn't be surprised if Bush thinks he is); it more depends on whether or not Maliki blindly goes along with what Bush says, or if he trys to work cooperatively with his government, who should take precedence in the first place. I can understand Sadr's anger against Bush, though; if it weren't for his bull-headed, warmongering administration, they wouldn't be stuck in this civil war right now. Yeah, Saddam was a douchebag, granted, but are constant road-side bombings and "militias and death squads consisting of police officers" really a whole lot better?
__________________
...it sure seems as if style has increased in importance lately. I’ve seen a lot of skinny, black-haired and angst-ridden kids. I guess what I want to see is more fat misanthropists on stage, preferably without hair dye. -Kristofer Steen, former guitarist for Refused Game Freaks - The best source for video game reviews, news, and miscellany...written by two guys named Matt. The Sleeper Hit - my one man band. |
11-28-2006, 12:51 PM | #3 | ||
for all seasons
|
Also, there's this:
U.S. Finds Iraq Insurgency Has Funds to Sustain Itself By JOHN F. BURNS and KIRK SEMPLE Quote:
EDIT: As an update - President Smart Guy is acting real smart again. Bush Blames Al Qaeda for Wave of Iraq Violence By SHERYL GAY STOLBERG and JOHN O’NEIL Quote:
__________________
check out my buttspresso
Last edited by Fifthfiend; 11-28-2006 at 12:53 PM. |
||
11-28-2006, 01:17 PM | #4 |
Oh, jeez, this guy again?
|
It's unsurprising that Bush would claim Al-Qaeda was somehow behind the violence in Iraq; his black-and-white worldview doesn't allow for anything else. There's no way the fine, upstanding people that we "freed" are going to fight among themselves! It's not like there's any cultural or religious differences between them! They're Iraqis, a completely homogenous group! Although he probably wouldn't use the word homogenous. You know, because "homo" is hidden in it.
I just can't believe the utter incomptence involved in the planning of this war. It's like the people planning had no concept of the intricacies of the Middle East in general or Iraq in particular. The train of thought seems like it was "SADDAM=BAD. GET RID OF SADDAM=FIXES ALL PROBLEMS." It's neo-conservative, PNAC arrogance from beginning to end.
__________________
...it sure seems as if style has increased in importance lately. I’ve seen a lot of skinny, black-haired and angst-ridden kids. I guess what I want to see is more fat misanthropists on stage, preferably without hair dye. -Kristofer Steen, former guitarist for Refused Game Freaks - The best source for video game reviews, news, and miscellany...written by two guys named Matt. The Sleeper Hit - my one man band. |
11-28-2006, 06:28 PM | #5 | |
for all seasons
|
The thing with the Great Man approach to politics is somehow there's always another Great Man right behind the last Great Man. Take out Saddam? Job well done!-Oh now what's this some guy named Zarqawi making a ruckus? Zarqawi dead? Hooray! Oh wait what's this now, who's this Sadr fellow we keep hearing about? 'Cutting the head off of the serpent' isn't the best strategy when you're trying to stop a tidal wave.
And speaking of Al-Sadr, I suspect Maliki's question to Bush will be "what's your plan for keeping me from getting shot in the back of the head by Moqtada al-Sadr?" followed up with "And let me assure you that I'm a lot less worried about Al Qaeda than the roving bands of Shia death squads that, by the by, constitute the larger part of what passes for my 'government's' military." ... On a tangental note, but what really gets me is the talk from McCain and such about how what we really need is twenty thousand more troops in Iraq. I mean completely setting aside the issue of where are you going to find twenty thousand more people to send to Iraq, what exactly is there that twenty thousand more troops are going to accomplish, that a hundred and twenty thousand previously have been unable to do? I mean to be totally honest, I suspect the best you're going to do is increase numbers to the point where they pose enough of a threat that the Shia and Sunnis will stop shooting at each other long enough to shift their focus back to shooting at our guys. At this point opposition is so entrenched, you could probably put a million men under arms in that country, and accomplish nothing but forestalling the inevitable. EDIT: Slaughter in Iraq soon seems to be part of normal life A special dispatch by Patrick Cockburn on his journey through a country being torn apart by civil war Published: 28 November 2006 Quote:
__________________
check out my buttspresso
Last edited by Fifthfiend; 11-28-2006 at 06:49 PM. |
|
11-28-2006, 07:07 PM | #6 | ||||
Sent to the cornfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: L.A. Sprawl
Posts: 589
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Basically (to introduce into this thread a point from the NYPD thread), they could break the rules of Iraqi society. They could muster such an epic crackdown as to make ethnic and religious tensions in Iraq seem like college-football rivalries. Fifth -- you mention that a shitload of soldiers would be able to divert Shia and Sunni attention towards themselves. However, you say it as though this would be insignificant, even a detriment to progress in Iraq. In fact, it would be tremendously useful. It would mean that we had broken Iraq's rules -- left them in tatters, if even that. See, you can't really create something new until you destroy the old. Think how art has progressed through the ages -- each truly new movement has been derided for breaking the established rules. The impressionists, the cubists, abstract artists, all derided, all forged a new art by breaking utterly with the old. The naturalists of the Renaissance (and onward for a century or three) notably, were not similarly derided. After all, they were really just reviving the Greek and Roman naturalistic style of art. There was precedent. Music has followed a similar path, as has literature. Think how much we would be missing if not for the invention of the novel! A break from stale treatises and epic verse, the directness and evocative power of the novel has given us innumerable cultural achievements. Politics has also progressed in the same manner. From the ashes of the Roman Republic was born the Roman Empire. A phoenix cliché, I know, but so throughly true. Rome could not have survived without becoming an empire. It needed the unified rule, the direction, the abililty to act, quickly and decisively. Indeed, the decay of Rome may be viewed as an ignorance of the rules. Julius and Octavian established the rules, as the Imperator, and then Emperor, respectively. Julius established an executive far more powerful than any consul that came before him. His Triumvirate was more aligned with the Tribunes and Dictators of the earlier years of the Republic. Notably, the Gracchi, followed by Sulla, eroded the Republic's foundations, essentially beginning the process of destruction, laying the road to empire with the stones of the Senate house. Anyway, Julius created the Triumvirate, establishing that as the order of things to come. He then established a means of contest when he defeated his fellow Triumvirs on the battle field, leaving only Julius as Imperator. Octavian followed in his footsteps, forming a Triumvirate of his own after the death of Julius. And like Julius, he defeated his fellow Triumvirs. But he then broke with the father of the empire by declaring Rome as such -- an empire. He established a new method of succession, by birth. And whereas Julius had established conquest as a cornerstone of the Empire, so Octavian added bureaucracy. And after those two rule-breakers were gone, none truly followed in their footsteps, nor broke with them in a way that created something new. Tiberius was a natural bureaucrat, but did not acknowledge the roots of his Empire, which was founded in blood. He did not establish a new order of things -- he kept the legions, the generals, even pursued war when he absolutely had to, but refused to strike first blow and the final alike. He ignored Julius' rule. Gaius (Caligula) ignored the precedents of both Julius and Octavian, merely acting in the mad pursuit of immediate gratification and worldly pleasure. He was, by the rule of Julius, deposed. But Claudius was like Tiberius -- never a soldier. He was also far more inept than the plotting, secretive, diplomatic Tiberius. He ignored Julius' rule, and observed Octavian's only in the most rudimentary sense. Nero was like Gaius before him. Finally, once again finding strength in the rules of Julius, Rome found a competant, effective emperor by way of civil war. And so that civil war kept the next two (Trajan and Hadrian) in line before it all decayed again. Diocletian revived the Empire from its deepest despair by dramatically restructuring it -- forging new rules as he broke old ones. Unfortunately, Constantine was not capable of following in such great footsteps. And so the Empire decayed as it became Christian -- a religion that was the antithesis of everything Julius and Octavian achieved. Now that I've shown how destruction and creation are inextricably bound, I think I can with some confidence put forth the theory that only by a destruction of all things Iraqi may we ever remake it in our image. Again, to point to Rome, see what Julius did to Gaul. He broke them. He was such a threat that the normally warring tribes united against him, and he routed them, personally riding into battle with his 40,000 legionnaires against the barbarian horde, 300,000 strong. And after the initial conquest? They would have returned to their old ways, but Julius would not let them. He garrisoned legions in their home, and built edifices of Roman life among them. Aqueducts, roads, sewers, Senates, peace, stability, prosperity, hope, freedom. Yes, freedom. They may have been absorbed into an empire, but the Gauls, as individuals, were given so much more freedom to be, to do more than they ever could have before Rome. By the end of the first century A.D., Gauls were serving in Rome itself as Senators. They were no longer Gauls. They were Romans. And so this is the only way that we could ever succeed in Iraq -- erase that suite of rules and laws that is collectively known as "Iraq" and replace it with the rules and laws of America. Is that the right thing to do? Well, probably not back when we first invaded, but now that we're there, and we've created a society in which there is ignorance of all but a few, bloody rules, we must destroy it. We've created a monster. We tore down what laws and rules Saddam gave to Iraq -- order, rule of law, tyranny, bureaucracy, stability, oppression. The problem is, we left all the ancient rules intact -- hatred, bigotry, tribalism, fanaticism, paranoia, revenge. We must finish what we started. Wipe the slate clean, and forge new rules for the Iraqis. And, well, 1,000,000 troops could probably do that. |
||||
11-28-2006, 08:42 PM | #7 |
for all seasons
|
...Without for now getting into a detailed response to the above, I'll just note that the bit about a million men was at least somewhat of a turn of rhetoric, and tentatively grant that yes, if you found a million trained soldiers somewhere that you could put in Iraq, properly equipped and under unified, competent leadership, you might possibly - though I do continue to emphasize that even this is something I would by no means take for granted - be able to make a difference for the better in Iraq. And as soon as anyone finds all of those things, I'll gladly take another look at the issue.
As for sending another twenty thousand, that's just some people trying to kid themselves real hard.
__________________
check out my buttspresso
|
11-28-2006, 09:39 PM | #8 | ||
Sent to the cornfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: L.A. Sprawl
Posts: 589
|
Quote:
The problem with waiting to take another look at the issue is that that way, no one will ever find those things necessary to success. As an electorate, we have to demand that the government secure those tools which can possibly result in success. Of course, that would require a willingness to make sacrifices, because not only would we need a draft, but we'd need to be willing to accept lots of American casualties, becuase our troops would need to be a great deal more active and out-going while occupying Iraq. So, yeah, it'll never happen. Iraq is fucked. It doesn't have to be that way, but it will be that way, mainly because the American people are by-and-large pathetic, coddled barbarians and have lost sight of anything but themselves. Quote:
|
||
11-29-2006, 02:48 PM | #9 | |
for all seasons
|
1. A warning:
Quote:
Just so that's said. 2. Responding to your earlier argument re. the breaking of nations - Roman antiquity seems a frightfully poor comparison to modern-day Iraq. If you want to talk about peoples being broken, well, the nations of Western Europe went to some lengths to break the people of Africa. The legacy of that has been about a hundred years of warfare and genocide. The Soviet Union tried to break Afghanistan, how did that work out? With the Soviet Union breaking itself, with the side benefit of paving the way for Afghanistan's entrenched radical theocratic regime. The British took some pains to break the people of India, the result there rebellion, religious partition and fifty years of warfare over Kashmir. Speaking of the British, I can think of one sleepy little Middle Eastern nation they spent thirty or so years trying to break, now remind me, how exactly did that one work out for everybody? Whatever the power of revolutionary movements generated from within a society or the imperatives of conquest for empires of old, in the modern world there are hard limits on the capability of any external entity to impose its will on an independent nation-state in anything like a beneficient capacity. An occupying army won't be able to 'break' ethnic/religious tensions in Iraq because the uniform effect of armed occupation is to exacerbate and entrench such divisions.
__________________
check out my buttspresso
|
|
11-29-2006, 03:47 PM | #10 | ||||
Sent to the cornfield
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: L.A. Sprawl
Posts: 589
|
Quote:
Seriously, though, I apologize. Quote:
First of all, the goals of the Romans, and at least our (America's) publicly-stated goals in Iraq are very similar -- make them like us. Don't rape their country for resources and slaves, or treat them like cattle, but rather enlighten them, bring them out of their religious and ethnic divisions, and replace their old value sets with new ones, specifically, ours. This is what the Romans did to Gaul. See, the Romans conquered only in part for plunder -- just as big a motivator, if not a far greater one (considering how the Gauls had previously sacked Rome, a couple centuries prior to Caesar) was safety. They were afraid of the Gauls, reasonably or not. They wanted safer borders, and they wanted to permanently eliminate a hostile nation. How do can you ever possibly do that? Make them your own. If you can beat them, make them join you. Rome invested a tremendous amount of blood and gold in Gaul, without any immediate net monetary return, and the people of Gaul benefited accordingly. They were given running water, sewers, roads, peace, stability, etc. (I already listed all this in my last post, I think). The Romans invested money and human life to improve the quality of life for the Gauls, and, by way of more Roman citizens (and therefore more soldiers), safer borders, and a greater tax pool, it improved the Roman quality of life as well, but only in the long run. Romans didn't see any benefits really for at least a good 30 years. It really took about 50 before Gaul became totally Romanized. Also, whereas Romans were settling like crazy in Gaul, most African countries didn't get settled by Europeans. South Africa is pretty much the only exception, but even in that case, the emigrating whites were coming to South Africa to become a permanent oppressor class, whereas Romans who settled in Gaul were generally more salt-of-the-earth kind of people. Ex-soldiers, mostly, living off of their pensions on beautiful, fertile farmland in what today is Provence. Not a bad deal, actually. Anyway, the Romans brought their culture, their gods, their politics with them, and tried to bring Gauls into the fold, tried to make the Gauls equals. It was completely and utterly different from European colonialism. It would be more analagous to France or Britain going to Africa and conquering what little military resistance cropped up, and then saying: "OK, so, we're going to modernize the crap out of your ass-backwards country [I'm not saying they were ass-backwards, but I'm trying to replicate the somewhat arrogant attitude of the Romans], until you people are educated enough, and invested enough in our culture to be our fellow citizens, with all the rights and freedoms and priviliges and comforts that that status entails. You know, like, indoor plumbing, and no more microscopic worm larvae in your water that grow to three feet or longer in your body before popping out of festering sores." But, that's not what the Europeans did. If you'll remember, my definition of "breaking" required that something be created afterwards. The problem with the European atrocities of colonialism is that they never created anything. They just ignored all the rules of the societies they conquered. Ignored, because they never set up any new rules to take the place of those they ignored. Yes, they had laws, and yes, people got punished for ignoring laws and rules that the Europeans instituted, but I mean at a deeper, cultural level, Europeans did not create. They merely corrupted, cheated, starved, and left the cultures they conquered to twist in the wind. Rome conquered African nations, too. Only, when they did it, they made them Romans. The result was prosperity and stability. Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make here? It's not some quirk of the modern world that conquest must always turn out this way -- it's just a matter of the conquerors' goals. Do you want to rape a people and their land for plunder, and nothing else? Well, then it's not going to turn out well for either of you in the long run. Do you want to change their very way of life, bring them a new, more enlightened, more powerful, more progessive culture that, say, doesn't endorse genocide or genital mutilation (well, the Romans didn't endorse genocide anyway. We're kind of more lax about it than they were. Honestly, the Romans were, in some ways (not all! obviously not all!), far more humane than modern nations today. They didn't stand for that kind of bullshit.)? Well, then things will turn out well for both of you, in the long run. All the Europeans did was break down the preexisting power structures of the nations they conquered. They didn't endeavor to really make the conquered peoples citizens of the empire -- merely tools, resources. The result was nothing held back the savagery that every culture buries beneath its laws and customs. So, when the Europeans left, and took their imposed laws with them (that's another thing -- the Europeans did create some laws, in a technical sense, but they were always the Europeans' laws, and never became the laws of Africa. By contrast, Roman laws became the laws of Gauls. The Gauls appreciated the laws, enforced them, valued them, even edited them and added to them.), there was nothing left to stop the despair of every-man-for-himself that every culture attempts to quell. Indeed, the whole idea of culture itself is to prevent the Hobbesian nightmare from becoming reality. Gauls, after a half-century, were fit to be called Roman. And so they were. They were Romans. We still consider them part of the Roman empire, Roman citizens to this day. We refer to them as Gauls to be ethnically specific, but they were Roman, in a cultural, legal, and spiritual sense. Of course we would never call Algerians "French." And that, fifth, is where Europe went so terribly wrong, and broke only one thing -- the hope of a continent. The whole point of my Roman lectures is to provide Rome as the counter-example to such murderous European imperialism. No, colonialsim -- it isn't even fit to bear the name "imperial," which comes from a nation and template so completely antithetical to European atrocities. Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Tydeus; 11-29-2006 at 03:52 PM. |
||||
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|