The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[ZAKtheGeek]

That too, but the guy mostly wrote about factors that would have greatly reduced the variability of matter in the universe, as in, all hydrogen and whatnot. Which I assume is accurate.

[crzy lion]

Originally Posted by Loki, The Fallen

Hate to start poking holes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death

So... you see... even your orange rock eventually will cease to exist. All we'll be left with (In theory mind you, as all of this science stuff is theoretical) is this massive expanse of photons. Thats pretty darn close to nothing.

after reading through 2 pages i found soooooo many "scientific" statements that werent scientific at all i decided to put my word here...
a: heat failing and stars flying away is 1 possible end, out of the 2 possible endings, the other one is that gravity will keep pulling the stars, which will decrease speed, and fall back. then we will probably have the big bang all over (this is the ending that makes most sense to me to be honest).

[Sithdarth]

a: head failing us all is 1 possible end, out of the 2 possible endings, the other one is that gravity will keep pulling the stars, which will decrease speed, and fall back. then we will probably have the big bang all over (this is the ending that makes most sense to me to be honest).

Couple of things here:

1) head failing us all?

2) That theory pretty much went out when they found evidence that the expansion of the universe is actually increasing. Still held by some scientist though.

3) Heat-death and the big rip, were the fabric of space tears itself apart, are generally considered more likely than the big crunch. (The big crunch being gravity collapse.)

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

Originally Posted by krylo

Also, there's no proof that if the universe had come about differently, that different forms of life wouldn't have evolved in it, and then gone off about how their universe is perfect for them, and thus it must have been intelligently desigend.

It's not that the universe is perfectly fine-tuned for our survival. It's that we are perfectly fine-tuned for the universe we arose in.

In a sense, yes. However, there are some constants that make this seem highly unlikely. For instance, if the electromagnetic force were stronger than it is, (actually, it would probably have to be significantly stronger) it would impede the fusion reactions within stars.

Without fusion reactions we would be left with hydrogen, helium, and some form of lithium -- only elements that the Big Bang itself produced. There are only so many ways hydrogen, helium, and trace amounts of lithium can combine.

And there's also no more energy than the gravitational compression of massive bodies. Which means that virtually all the matter in the universe would form stars that would just... sit there, perpetually, as brown dwarves.

So, in short:
-No heat.
-No planets.
-No heavy elements.
-Few, if any, complex mollecules of any kind.

So, in terms of life, I think that universe is pretty screwed. (I mean, I know there's a whole "you can't prove that" thing going on there, but, frankly, one needs some basic conception of life, and I think complex mollecules and the ability to rearrange them in some way are somewhat intrinsic to that.)

However, that would probably take a truly massive change. Minor changes would do next to nothing, or only increase the maximum density of brown dwarf stars.

The only real problem with that line of thought is that we have only ourselves as bases for comparison. Essentially, hugely big, minutely small, and out in left field are all equally likely places for the power of the electromagnetic force in any conceptual universe -- as far as we know.

However, on the oppsite end of that, if the electromagnetic force were ratcheted up that high, it might be capable of doing things that we've never seen before. Perhaps to the extent of providing the kind of energy exchanges that fusion otherwise would.

And who the hell knows if these forces wouldn't even be replaced with something weirder? We have no conception.

So, it's possible to end up with a universe whose forces make life next to impossible -- however, there are also a wide range of constants, and inclusions of forces we have no conception of, that would also not make life impossible.

We just have no friggin' idea.

Though, from the simplest standpoint, if you take infinite tries with no constants than, yes, you could come out with a universe in which, basically, anything is possible, including the impossibility of life. I mean, it just makes sense.

That doesn't really mean it's likely though.

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

(The big crunch being gravity collapse.)

I prefer the "Gnab Gib" myself.

[crzy lion]

yea...i have no idea why i made that typo, i was in a hurry. And let's keep it at that.

anyways, while gravity will allways exist and allways keep pulling on the stars, the speed is a constant that can only decrease, thats why the big crunch makes more sense to me. Besides: our heat has nothing to do with the other stars, and the sun dying out will take so long its by far more probable imho that the human race will have annihilated itself than the human race dying b/c the sun dies.

heck, imo: extra terrestial pink lady-bugs ruling over the humans is going to happen sooner than the humans outliving the sun

[42PETUNIAS]

heck, imo: extra terrestial pink lady-bugs ruling over the humans is going to happen sooner than the humans outliving the sun

Unless theres a really stupid person on this thread, no one has come even close to argueing that we'll live anywhere close to the time that our sun will give out. That'd just be idiotic.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

Originally Posted by crzy lion

the speed is a constant that can only decrease

Except that the apparent speed is increasing.

I know, it suprised us, too.

The space between galaxies is getting larger more quickly than before. The process is accelerating, rather than decelerating like we expected.

That's what Sithdarth was talking about.

[Sithdarth]

Read and be enlightened, and also really freaked out.

[Ziek]

Anyone ever hear that the universe is ever-expanding? It goes along with the theory of infinite largeness. It makes sense that things are speeding up as well because the faster things move, the more heat there is. The more heat there is, the more energy, the more energy the more speed. Only reason I am even saying this is because as things move further apart, other objects' gravity affects other objects even less until the objects are out of the other objects gravitational field all together, then there will be nothing slowing them down. But hey, I believe in infinity, and somehtign has to start the infinity for it to keep going. A beginning without an end you know?

[ZAKtheGeek]

Or it could be a true infinity with no beginning, either.