Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Mannix]

Originally Posted by Lady Cygnet

Not every country has laws protecting free speech, Mannix.

my point exactly

Originally Posted by Tydeus

Mannix -- the pertinent law in India makes it a crime to maliciously insult any religion); these countries are often powderkegs of ethnic and religious differences, and the governments are doing their best to keep people from blowing each other up, even at the expense of a little free speech.

Now, in principle, I disagree with it, because culture and/or religion are personal choices, and therby free game for all manner of ridicule. But, fact is, a lot of the time, these laws can have practical purposes. Like keeping conflict between Muslims and Hindus in India as non-violent as possible.

Plus, it can be a great way to control the masses. Hail Caesar!

my bad, i went back and read it again, you're right. actually, now that i think about it, that's why slayer's last album was banned in india as well.

those kinds of laws have done jack to stop people from blowing up other people. that's why there's still all kinds of ethnic/religious tension on the pakistan/india border. i agree with jefferson though, you can't limit free speech without losing it. franklin, too, when he said that any society that would give up a little freedom to gain a little security deserves neither, and will lose both.

[Fifthfiend]

You know the more I look at this the more the issue is just inseparable from religion, so I'm just gonna make everyone's life easier and merge this into the Big Big Thread.

[CelesJessa]

The big thing you have to realize about India and it's laws surrounding it's religion compared to America is that Hinduism has been influencing India specifically since before 1500 BC(while the theory of the origins of Hinduism dates back to 4000-2000 BC), while America was formed as a "melting pot" of several different religions, so it's not a surprise that while we don't have laws directly about our religion, India does. Also, in India, Hinduism is more than just a religion it is (I quote from my textbook): "Hinduism is not strictly a religion. It is based on the practice of Dharma, the code of life"

So basically, these people were not just insulting their religion, but their very code of life. And, she was wearing leather! They have full scriptures about the holiness of a cow, so obviously this is a huge deal to them (one example would be, "The very name of cow is Aghnya ("not to be killed"), indicating that they could never be slaughtered. Who, then could slay them? Surely, one who kills a cow or a bull commits a heinous crime. -Mahabhrarat Shantiparv 262.46?
Just to satisfy any curiousity, the Hindus/India holds cows so high because they give us so much(milk) and take nothing in return but grass, a staple value in their code of life. So you're pretty much a baby-killer to them if you kill these cows.

Also, this is India, so we have to respect their doctrines and laws, no matter if we don't agree with them. There is not a lot of religious tolerance in India because they don't have as much seperation between Church and state as cultures we are more familiar with do.

(Oh man, I hope this doesn't jump over the line of religious discussion, I was trying to keep it subjectively as how their religion effects their culture rather than "what religion is right" which seems to be what isn't allowed. Also, I checked and I was told I could post this so... yeah)

EDIT: and now I'm doubly okay, since it's in here!

[ZAKtheGeek]

Oh, a merger. I was afraid that someone had been modded for posts made in the holiest of threads.

[42PETUNIAS]

Yeah, what she did was dumb beyond belief, between setting up a phony-ish marriage for publicity and money, disrespecting their marriage ceremony, and wearing leather shoes, which I think Celes hits the mark in comparing that to a baby-killer. While I don't necessarily think this should mean jailtime, it should at least mean a hefty fine, for such incompetence.

[Mannix]

Originally Posted by 42PETUNIAS

Yeah, what she did was dumb beyond belief, between setting up a phony-ish marriage for publicity and money, disrespecting their marriage ceremony, and wearing leather shoes, which I think Celes hits the mark in comparing that to a baby-killer. While I don't necessarily think this should mean jailtime, it should at least mean a hefty fine, for such incompetence.

you guys are right, thousands of years of precedent trump any kind of progress. they've been doing it this long, why change. staying exactly the same all the time is precisely why the us and western europe are so relatively safe, stable, and prosperous.

look, india is trying to move its self into the present. they're modernizing the economy and education systems which is all fine and good, but it's for nothing if they don't also modernize their society and the people in it. i don't mean they have to 'westernize' but they need to recognize and embrace that people come from other places if they want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world.

this is the equivalent of, say, some arab guy going to dinner at a fancy restaurant, letting a huge superbelch out at the end of the meal, then wiping his mouth on a copy (not even an origional, just a regular out of a bookstore copy) of the constitution in the states. and then having criminal charges leveled at him. everything he did there was super culturally insensitive, and he desecrated one of our most sacred symbols (or the closest thing we have to sacred).

on a side note, i can't help but feel that if she hadn't been british this wouldn't be as big a deal as it is. maybe some tut tutting. the indians have a bit of a chip on their shoulder when it comes to the british (understandibly).

edit: also, damn you fifth! i vowed never to post in this thread, and now i'm here by merger default!

[CelesJessa]

staying exactly the same all the time is precisely why the us and western europe are so relatively safe, stable, and prosperous.

How is western Europe/America any more safe, stable, prosperous than successful Asian countries? Japan is one of the most modern asian countries there is, yet there are so many things that they haven't changed from ancient times. Shinto is still their #1 religion, even though their "god" was debunked forever ago. They visit the shrines regularly and pray to their anscestors. Women are still the "baby raisers", even today, older Japanese women won't walk next to their husbands, but maybe a step behind. I don't see preservations from their past beliefs/ethics holding Japan back any. As a matter of fact, Japan is one of the safest countries in the world, with a .4-.6% murder rate, while the US has a 6%

i don't mean they have to 'westernize' but they need to recognize and embrace that people come from other places if they want to be taken seriously by the rest of the world.

They do realize that people come from other places (and other religions). I quote from my textbook about Indian and Hindu culture: "...religions which recognize the existence of multiple dieties have traditionally been among the world's most religiously tolerant. Hinduism remains arguable one of the more tolerant of such religions."

And you shouldn't be telling what India "needs" to do when some could tell you that you need to recognise that different countries base their laws, culture, and such on different things, such as religion, tradition, etc. "Modernizing" society may mean one thing to me, and a million different things to someone halfway across the world. Who's to say who's opinion of "modern" is correct? If I'm not correct, Japan's society is VERY modern, yet they still place a ton of emphasis on their ancestors, and ancient traditions from forever ago. They still have tea houses where Geisha host, and only people who were recommended to the Geisha houses can visit (meaning no out-of-country visitors, unless you made a big impression) It doesn't make their society any more or less modern from our society.

American laws are just as based on our ethics and beliefs as any other country. We may not be as religion-specific, but if our ethics didn't reflect our laws, we wouldn't have them. So if we expect foreigners to abide by our laws, we'd better damn well abide by their laws.

Originally Posted by Mannix

this is the equivalent of, say, some arab guy going to dinner at a fancy restaurant, letting a huge superbelch out at the end of the meal, then wiping his mouth on a copy (not even an origional, just a regular out of a bookstore copy) of the constitution in the states. and then having criminal charges leveled at him. everything he did there was super culturally insensitive, and he desecrated one of our most sacred symbols (or the closest thing we have to sacred).

No, it would only be equivalent if we actually had working laws in place forbidding people from doing such things. It wasn't just culturally insensitive what they did, it was against the law.

It would be more like if someone from a culture where taking someone's stuff out of their house was okay came over to America and stole something. Hey, it's okay there, but it's not morally, ethically, or legally correct here. Are we going to cut them slack because they were ignorant?

I don't think they should get huge prison time, like 42Petunias said, but they shouldn't get off just because of "ignorance" or lack of caring about that nation's laws.

[Toast]

I mostly agree with Mannix. Sounds to me like they're being a little bit overzealous. Granted, I tend to say that about anyone who chooses to be offended, but still, sounds like he's whinging to me. I mean, it's not as if she killed the cow and made sandals out of it in front of him and forced him to watch.

And as for the modernism of American culture, no we're probably worse. We just like to hide behind what we do have. That being said, at the very least, we don't have honour killings.

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by Toast

I mean, it's not as if she killed the cow and made sandals out of it in front of him and forced him to watch.

You don't seem to understand the status of the cow to Hinduism. It isn't some animal that they protect from poaching, like we would treat an endangered species. It is completly revered, as an innocent animal that does no harm, and is a symbol of their religion. They would view wearing sandals made of its skin as equivalent to King Steve's Babyskin™ shoes, not as an ivory umbrella stand.

[Toast]

Actually, I think I do. What's interesting is that India is the second largest producer of leather goods in the world, behind China. Granted this is a couple years old, but still. And granted, bovine leather isn't the only kind that's produced there, but it's something to think about. I also realize that not all Indians are Hindu, but they make up about 80% of the total population.


Here's also something interesting.

Many Hindus believe their lifestyle is a demonstration of kindness to animals and reverence for life. But just how much are we respecting life when we buy that new leather jacket or leather shoes? How easily we Hindus forget that leather is the dead skin of a tortured cow--the Hindu symbol of motherhood and giver of life. As ironic as it sounds, much of the leather sold in Europe and the United States originates in the land of ahimsa, India, where the leather trade, like China's, is one of the cruelest in the world. Americans, Europeans and even we Hindus routinely buy leather made from Indian cows. Consumers never realize the leather was obtained illegally, and never know about the brutality that went into their new leather jacket or handbag. Please don't buy leather. It's easy to find inexpensive, quality shoes and accessories that are stylish and free of animal suffering.

from Here

Here's something else, too, but again, it is rather old. older news

It would be rather funny, in an ironic sort of way, if her leather shoes had been made from Indian leather.

So I stand by my claim that I understand the symbolism of a cow to Hinduism, and I also stand by my previous assertion that people choose to be offended. I didn't notice anywhere in the article where it said there was a general uproar over her wearing the sandals, just one guy making a fuss. I mean, hell, his first name is Vishnu, maybe that tells you something about the kind of label he's had to grow up with.