Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[ZAKtheGeek]

And now for something completely different:

Here's a site I found recently. It seems really interesting. I've barely read any of it though, so for all I know it could turn out like that other massive site somebody posted in probably the other thread: increasingly ridiculous.

The one article I read (most of) is this one on the cosmological argument, which is the one that says that the universe must have been caused by something, and goes on to say that that something must be God. Unsurprisingly, I found it to have holes here and there. Like, can somebody explain this to me:

However, there is an additional flaw with the proposed oscillating model. The oscillating model assumes that an infinite number of events can actually exist. However, this is by no means certain. The problem is that an infinite number of events leads to logical absurdities. This problem has been articulated by many esteemed philosophers. 7

The problem of an actual infinite number of things becomes obvious when one considers an analogy. Say, for instance, that there was a line of people waiting to ride a roller coaster that was infinitely long. In other words, an infinity of people are anxiously waiting to ride this new attraction. Now, let’s say that half of the people in this line decide that the wait is too long and they all head over to wait in the line for the Merry-Go-Round. Now, several inconsistencies appear. Even though half of the people left, the line for the roller coaster is still infinitely long! Additionally, the Merry-Go-Round also has an infinite number of people waiting in line! So now, there are two rides with an infinite number of people, instead of only one, even though the only thing that has happened is the transfer of half of the people from the roller coaster to the Merry-Go-Round. As is easily seen, this scenario has lead to numerous inconsistencies and contradictions.

Now, this analogy shows clearly that an actual infinite number of events cannot exist. Obviously, if the universe existed eternally, then there would have been an infinite amount of events. Therefore, it is concluded that the universe cannot be eternal. This serves only to reinforce the scientific evidences mentioned earlier.

I'm open to the idea that this just isn't clicking with me and is not, instead, a bunch of nonsense... As long as someone can tell me how it makes any sense.

...

(sorry for the derailment)

[Frostatine]

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

(sorry for the derailment)

Dont be, I really enjoyed that.

Isnt logic great?

But what are you trying to prove with this? That God himself is not infinite? Or that the universe is not infinite? I beleive both are true.

Were there a god he could not possibly have infinite power, this would mean that due to his actions an infinite number of possibilities exist, which was just proved earlier to be false.

Although the more dogmatic christians would say "god works in mysterious ways, most people would innately question the plausibility of an 'infinite being'"

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Frostatine

Were there a god he could not possibly have infinite power, this would mean that due to his actions an infinite number of possibilities exist, which was just proved earlier to be false.

If he had infinite power, and he knew how to do things perfectly, wouldn't there only be one possibility?

Now, this analogy shows clearly that an actual infinite number of events cannot exist. Obviously, if the universe existed eternally, then there would have been an infinite amount of events. Therefore, it is concluded that the universe cannot be eternal. This serves only to reinforce the scientific evidences mentioned earlier.

If you go the way of the Bible, God created the universe and it's going to end, so it's not eternal.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I'm trying to prove that they can't prove that the universe isn't eternal.

Parse that at your own pace.

[Sithdarth]

Yeah here is the thing, logical while great doesn't always translate to physical law all that well. In mathematics for example there are several ways to deal with infinities depending on how and way they arise. Ways that don't screw things up. The only way to really apply logic universally in a physically relevant way is through math.

Also, there are infinities happening all the time. Put to mirrors across from each other and bam you have an infinity. Put a microphone next to the speaker its plugged into and bam you have an infinity. Crush matter slightly below the density of the nucleus of and atom and boom infinity. Draw yourself a circle boom infinity. Heck take a strip of paper, pull the ends together so it makes a loop then twist one end 180 degrees and glue the ends together. Now you have a one sided strip of paper that goes on forever. Hell any irrational number, PI for example, is infinite.

Also, you can't argue infinities with standard logic because we don't know really know what an infinity is aside from something without end. Taking that alone its really not all that inconsistent to say cutting an infinity in half gives you another infinity. If you place to mirrors across from each other and then cut them both in half and keep both half across from their partner you have created two infinites out of one.

Besides all that you can't really logically or scientifically prove a negative absolutely anyway. There is always that chance you just haven't collected the right data. However, with all the infinities we have floating around its safe to assume that they can exist. In short, when a philosopher claims he's logically deduced some fact about science don't listen to him because its little better than a guess. If a scientist claims that he's scientifically proven something about morals don't listen to him either because its little better than a guess.

[ZAKtheGeek]

If a scientist claims that he's scientifically proven something about morals don't listen to him either because its little better than a guess.

Or just plain bullshit, unless we can all agree on ethical postulates.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

This is why mathematics invented cardinalities. They are basically ways of catergorising the sizes of different infinite sets.
And who needs an oscillating universe anyway? Quantum fluctuations of the vacuum are all good.
Also that still assumes the universe is logical which is something that has been proven to be mathematically unprovable. And all you need to do to prove it to yourself is to look at qauntum stuff.

[Archbio]

I really don't see what a Christian hopes to gain by a demonstration against eternity or infinity, even if it was convincing. Christian models of the universe rely so much on these concepts.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

Besides all that you can't really logically or scientifically prove a negative absolutely anyway. There is always that chance you just haven't collected the right data. However, with all the infinities we have floating around its safe to assume that they can exist. In short, when a philosopher claims he's logically deduced some fact about science don't listen to him because its little better than a guess. If a scientist claims that he's scientifically proven something about morals don't listen to him either because its little better than a guess.

Wow. I remember saying something similar way back in the first big big thread to krylo because he said God can't exist using logic. I believe he replied "so its not that christians don't know logic, its because they use it poorly?"

Now I see somebody who disagrees with me on pretty much everything else agreeing that logic isn't the start and end of all truth. Go figure.

Originally Posted by Archbio

I really don't see what a Christian hopes to gain by a demonstration against eternity or infinity, even if it was convincing. Christian models of the universe rely so much on these concepts.

To be honest, Arch, I don't see what a Christian hopes to gain by a convincing argument of many things. There are so many abstract things Christians debate on which have no bearing on anything (such as this infinite vs finite universe), and that Christians themselves even disagree on, I see it as little more than a mind excercise. Why do some Christians need to prove all these unprovable things? I don't really know...

[ZAKtheGeek]

Why do some Christians need to prove all these unprovable things? I don't really know...

In my experience, it's to shut the pesky, proof-demanding atheists up. But then, that's just my experience.