Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Ben_Fox]

Originally Posted by Darth SS

I doubt anyone truly tries to degrade god. The problem I have is more that christian metal groups that say "We're just as hardcore as any of those other guys."

Writing and singing religious oriented music is a restriction that other musicians do not have, and because of it you're not going to compare, nor are you drawing in the same crowd because that crowd doesn't care about you. As stated before, they're trying to be something they pointedly can't be.

So you're really going to post this and imply that Soulfly can't stand toe-to-toe with any other metal or hardcore band this side of Emperor you care to name? That the same group that brought us "Seek 'n Strike," "Back to the Primitive," "Tribe," and "Jump the (f-bomb) Up?" is somehow limited because on the back of every single album you can find the words "Dedicado a Deus (Dedicated to God)?"

[42PETUNIAS]

Well, I don't know anything about Soulfly, but to me they sound like a heavy metal band that happens to be religious, while Darth SS was talking about heavy metal bands whose music is solely about religion.

[Ryanderman]

Originally Posted by 42PETUNIAS

Well, I don't know anything about Soulfly, but to me they sound like a heavy metal band that happens to be religious, while Darth SS was talking about heavy metal bands whose music is solely about religion.

I don't know that you'll find many - if any - heavy metal bands whose music is solely about religion. Most Christian heavy metal bands, and actually a large number of Christian bands in general are just bands who happen to be Christian. Some of their songs may be about God or about their faith, but many aren't. But they still consider themselves, and are considered to be Christian bands.

[Darth SS]

And therein lies the distinction I assumed had already been made.

Bands that do their own thing and just happen to be religious? Cool. I'm fine with that. They are not trying to cater to a super small section of the market, and then say "We're just as cool as those other guys." I'm fine with these guys. My only kind of beef with group is how sometimes there are songs that have nothing to do with religion that are put on CDs claiming to be faith-based music. An example would be "Go" on a CD that I forcibly given for earlier in the week.

My annoyance is with groups that are exclusively religious, not with groups that are religious on the side.

[Ben_Fox]

I dunno. Christianity has mad metal cred no matter how you look at it. Some two thousandish years of subversion, social strife, war and the overthrow of governments, y'know? If that ain't metal...well...I must be too old to recognize it anymore, hehe.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by Ben_Fox

I dunno. Christianity has mad metal cred no matter how you look at it. Some two thousandish years of subversion, social strife, war and the overthrow of governments, y'know? If that ain't metal...well...I must be too old to recognize it anymore, hehe.

I'm sorry, Christianity has two thousand years of subversion? Considering the immense power of the Catholic Church throughout most of the Common Era (pretty much ever since Constantine until the last few hundred years), it wasn't responsible for "subversion" so much as "being the authority on everything ever". I don't think you can be subversive while being an authority figure.

Also, er, when was the last time that Christianity overthrew a government? Because I can't think of anything.

[TheSpacePope]

Also, er, when was the last time that Christianity overthrew a government? Because I can't think of anything.

That'd have been constantine, and It wasn't really an over throw
Speaking of Constantine, How do some of the Christians on the NPF feel about the Council of Nicea, which basically wrote the bible that we all read today?

I'm sorry, Christianity has two thousand years of subversion

More like 500 years, then 1500 years of subjugation. Common mistake.

Subversion, subjugation.... very close.

Also, I want to ask, should the church have apologised for the inquisistion, the crusades, the witch trials, and helping the Nazi's?
(I honestly want to know this, just bear with me because no matter how many times I write it, it's...offputting) And How do you...I guess rationalize these things, when you come to terms with what faith has done, and is actively doing to the world.
Putting it a slightly different way. The aggression in the middle east is an extension of the crusades, the extention of holy war, Is there such a thing as "holy war"? I.e killing for a righteous purpose?

honestly, we got a bit off there talking about Christian heavy metal. I want to spark a debate on these issues.

The above reasons are why I choose to worship God in a non-traditional, almost druidic way, instead of attaching myself to a denomination.

What do you all think?

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

Also, I want to ask, should the church have apologised for the inquisistion, the crusades, the witch trials, and helping the Nazi's?

Thats like asking should white people apologize to black people for the horrible things done to them. Simply put, if that Catholic hierarchy wants to apologize, thats their business, but I'm not saying sorry for something I neither did nor support. The only actions I'm responsible for apologizing are my own, and if Jesus taught anything it was that we're responsible for our own sins and no one else's. I mean, geez, I screw up enough on my own without worrying about what my ancestors did.

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

And How do you...I guess rationalize these things, when you come to terms with what faith has done, and is actively doing to the world.

Faith didn't do those things. People did. People can occasionally be quite evil, in case you didn't notice, whether their excuse is faith or something else. I don't see anywhere that Jesus told me to slaughter someone for believing someone different than me, or ostracizing someone I'd consider a sinner from society, or looking down on anybody with an 'unholy' lifestyle. I'm pretty sure Jesus said to pray for them and treat them with kindness.

So is the fault Jesus' teachings, or what some know-it-all power hungry jerks twisted it in to? If history teaches us anything... the wrong man can corrupt anything.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

Thats like asking should white people apologize to black people for the horrible things done to them.

Well, I'd say it's distinct. Since no living white person in America owned slaves prior to the Civil War, and even directly prior to it, when slavery was at it's height, no state had a .1 or greater result to the equation of total slave holders divided by total white persons. Asking a white person to apologize is the same sort of ancestral blame that was used to rationalize the oppression of blacks (and other non-white non-semites) because of the sins of Ham (Genesis 9:22 + 9:25). On the other hand, the Catholic Church is a static entity which has remained functionally mostly the same over the past millenia. It would be more akin to the United States government apologizing for ever allowing slavery in the first place.

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

Simply put, if that Catholic hierarchy wants to apologize, thats their business, but I'm not saying sorry for something I neither did nor support. The only actions I'm responsible for apologizing are my own, and if Jesus taught anything it was that we're responsible for our own sins and no one else's.

Er... you do know why Catholics baptize babies at birth, right? Because of original sin? aka ancestral sin dating straight back to Adam and Eve?

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

Faith didn't do those things. People did. People can occasionally be quite evil, in case you didn't notice, whether their excuse is faith or something else. I don't see anywhere that Jesus told me to slaughter someone for believing someone different than me, or ostracizing someone I'd consider a sinner from society, or looking down on anybody with an 'unholy' lifestyle. I'm pretty sure Jesus said to pray for them and treat them with kindness.

Not reading very well then, are you?

Originally Posted by Jesus, Luke 16:17

It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

and

Originally Posted by The Lord, Exodus 34:13

Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.

(note: this part of the covenant that God made with Moses)
Or how about these quotes:

Originally Posted by Jesus, Matthew 15:24

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

This was in response to a Canaanite woman asking Jesus to heal her demon-possessed daughter.

Originally Posted by Jesus, Luke 12:51, 53

"Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. . . . They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

A very similar version is also in Matthew.

Originally Posted by Jesus, Luke 10:10-12

"But when you enter a town and are not welcomed, go into its streets and say, 'Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near.' I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.

God will do something worse to you than nuking your city if you don't welcome the seventy-two who were selected by Jesus.

[Ben_Fox]

Originally Posted by Serenity

Er... you do know why Catholics baptize babies at birth, right? Because of original sin? aka ancestral sin dating straight back to Adam and Eve?

The doctrine of Original Sin is a uniquely Catholic/Western Christian creation that finds its roots in the writings of St. Augustine. Good luck finding Biblical references to the importance Catholicism and Western Christian traditions attach to it outside the tale of Adam and Eve in Genesis.

Originally Posted by Serenity

Various Bible quotes

It's a long-standing axiom that you can dig up a Bible verse to support any point of view you might have.

Incidentally, part of this springs from our failure to understand that the ancients were not writing literally in their religious texts. It was implicitly understood that the writings were allegory and metaphor. The Bible is the finger pointing at the moon. If you focus on the finger (read the Bible literally), you'll never see the moon (your own personal apprehension of God at an intuitive level). These literal interpretations of the Bible, most pronounced here in the West, are one of the root causes of the dissatisfaction many people take away from Western Christian creeds.