Brady Campaign to America's Hunters: "All your rifles are belong to us"

[Mesden]

After all, theres nothing in the Constitution about "thou shall not round up political dissenters into cattle cars."

Fourth Amendment.

[Roy_D_Mylote]

Just for starters, guns are banned in the UK and there's very little gun crime there, whereas over here I could go to K-fucking-Mart and buy a shotgun in like twenty minutes, and there's a whole lotta gun crime here. So I don't know really how bad banning guns would be. I don't like it when people die.

[P-Sleazy]

Yea, but doesn't the UK level that out by not giving thier street police any guns either. Just clubs. Ain't that ironic. The best way to keep crime at its lowest isn't high technology, but the first weapon known to man, the club.

[Mannix]

Originally Posted by Roy_D_Mylote

Just for starters, guns are banned in the UK and there's very little gun crime there, whereas over here I could go to K-fucking-Mart and buy a shotgun in like twenty minutes, and there's a whole lotta gun crime here. So I don't know really how bad banning guns would be. I don't like it when people die.

Guns aren't banned in the UK, you just need a permit to buy one. A friend of mine in Kent has a couple of shotguns. Also, the UK has at least a couple of cities with obscene gun crime. I think Manchester is one of the higher ones, if memory serves.

I don't think anybody likes it when people die, that's not the issue. The issue is what freedoms we're willing to abandon in order to potentially save people. Heart disease and automobiles kill several tens of thousands more people every year, but I have yet to hear about a bill being discussed that requires all people exercise and eat right or forbades car ownership and mandates use of public transportation.

[Krylo]

Also: The UK has a higher crime rate and death rate than the US.

So let's not go and use that as the model of anti-gun law success.

Use Australia.

There's also a place where gun ownership is mandated with an obscenely low crime rate and zero gun deaths.

So... I'll just wait till KP or something gets a bug to argue, 'cause I really don't feel like it--but honestly there's not enough evidence either way to support either side in a truly factual manner. That said--we already have the right and I'd rather keep all my rights, given that there's no real evidence that I shouldn't keep my rights, or, rather, that the evidence on both sides is strong and there's no single sweeping gun law that will lower, or even guarantee to not increase, mortality rates.

[Ugainius]

Or Ireland!

EDIT: Sorry, a brief explanation is in order.

Ireland has one of the lowest firearm related homicides in the world (second only to Japan and Mauritius. And can you still get a gun? Yes you can in fact it's easy enough if your determind enough.) YOu see we have a simple yet effective system in place.

To get a gun you have to

A): No criminal record or mental health issues

B): You be 16 years of age

C): A "good reason" for possessing the firearm. (A shooting range to practice on can count as a good reason, if you are a member of a authorized gun club.)

The certificate applies only to do gun you purchased and is incompatible to any or firearm.

There are certain weapons prohibited of course, but most hunting rifles are permitted. (In fact an Ak-47 is technically legal as it is not chambered in a 5.56 or .223 Remington chamber.)

[Krylo]

In discussion that's spam. Don't post just two words. Type out something resembling a discussion post.

[Sesshoumaru]

Austrailia's violent crime is also skyrocketing, after they banned most guns, and I know for a fact that gun deaths are not 'zero' although it is lower than the US [whoops, thought Krylo was talking about Australia, jsut read the clarification], and guess what, so's their non-gun murder rate, and it always has been; same with Britain. However, Britain no longer beats teh US when it comes to security from crime, as the U.K. now has the highest violent crime rate of any industrial nation (at least twice the U.S. rate), and an increasing percentage of it is being commited with handguns, despite the complete ban on handgun ownership (although single shot rifles, and I think most pump action shotguns are still allowed, but only with a permit that the police can deny or revoke at will; although I'm not positive on that, can one of Brits here enlighten us to this?). Antother thing to note, the anti gun organizations always talk aboutan 'epidemic' of 'gun' crime...except that firearm related crime has declined greatly over the last 14 years. In particular, non-fatal violent crimes is mostly (as in ~90%) commited without a firearm or any kind

Admittedly, ~55% or murders are commited with a handgun; however, murder is thankfully quite rare compared to other incidents of violence. Additional, any weapon that can be used in crime can also be used by an intended victim to defend against crime; there are no 'criminal' guns, only guns used by people who will be ciminals none the less, and the handgun is the only tool of defense that does not required great physical skill and training to be effective, such as knives or martial arts (although it skill requires practice and at least some training is reccommended, but you don't need to train for 10 years in China to be good enough to protect yourself with it). The problem is that since the late 60's, people like Paul Helmke, Sarah Brady, and Rosy O'Donnol have been waging a campaign of lies and perfidy to paint firearms as inherently evil devices that can only be used for evil if in the hands of the citizen (hmmm, I wonder why they still want police to have them then? I guess the magical badge tailsman makes them much superior to us unwashed peasants), rather than what they are. Tools, whose character is determined by the wielder; there will always be evil men, who wish to do harm to others, a 220lb rapist doesn't need a gun to commit his little tyrannies upon his victims, but a 115lb woman (unless she happens to have the combat skills of a shounen anime character) doesn't stand much of a chance of fist fighting her way to safty if cornered by him. Firearms are the only tool that can be used with equal effectiness by the physical weak against the strong, by the old agaisnt the young, and by the one against the many. However, far too many good men and women go entirely unprepared to deal with threats against them, there is a reason wolves prey on sheep instead of grizzleys.

[Mesden]

Here's a thread we did recently on this that has dozens upon dozens of links on gun crime/ownership/whatever statistics. Should save some time going over the same arguments.

[Krylo]

Edit: Mesden edited her post to be clearer, and this part of the post is no longer necessary.


That said, as is in that thread, when I said this:

There's also a place where gun ownership is mandated with an obscenely low crime rate and zero gun deaths.

I was talking about Kennesaw Georgia, I just didn't feel like looking up the name. They mandated gun ownership, and violent crime all but disappeared.

I, however, doubt the validity of mandated gun ownership in larger communities (I doubt it would have the same effect)--and, at the same time, see mandated gun ownership as an infringement on my rights as well. Not to the same degree as saying I can't own a gun, but still a pretty good sized infringement. The government shouldn't be forcing me to buy anything.

I won't bother extrapolating, 'cause I did that in the thread Mesden just linked.