Please have a look on my OOTS styled comic based on Baldur´s Gate - again!

[Leper Messiah TR]

first of all, I posted some strips of the 1st edition of my comic on this forum like half a year ago, now it´s drastically improved edition 3,25

first of all, although in OOTS style, this is NOT a comical comic; also, it is scheduled for 1000 strips, so the 3 strips that exist so far are not a benchmark for what I can do, and what the story can do

I am trying to tell a story that is based on the Baldur´s Gate trilogy of computer games (which is in the all-time top 3 of computer game stories in my opinion, amongst Planescape: Torment and Deus Ex), but adding lots of twists and expanding things that have only been hinted at in the game

-)my main concern is REALISM, namely to simulate what could have happened in a universe where gods and magic exist, with realistic (yet unique) characters and dialogues, without the metagaming and fourth-wall-breaking you maybe know from your favourite comics

it will be an extremely EPIC story (read the introduction in the first strip), also very complex and pretty hard to understand
another focus is on movie/tv series/book/music quotes and allusions the amount of which will be taken to the extreme

primary the comic is only for myself, after all it´s fun to make it although it takes a LOT of time; I can safely assume that nobody has ever done a similar thing before

so, like I said, the comic is not as ugly anymore as the first incarnation I posted here some time ago , so I would be happy for any comment


www.freewebs.com/lepermessiahtr/11mod.jpg
www.freewebs.com/lepermessiahtr/12mod.jpg
www.freewebs.com/lepermessiahtr/13mod.jpg

[Mirai Gen]

I can safely say that your comic has sufficiently become completely un eyesore-riffic. It actually looks good now, and your grasp of correct coloring has improved tremendously.

However we still run into a variety of problems - it is a bad OOTS ripoff. I mean no disrespect, but when you set up an art style to emulate another person's art style and then change half of it, it throws the reader off. The art is good in the places that OOTS is good - but whatever doesn't follow the style looks out of place and awkward.

Like, Imoen's arms extend down to above her bellybutton, making her arms look stubby and awkward. And yet...Aina?...her arms extend down to her belt, which normally is below the bellybutton by quite a ways. (On top of that lots of people's arms extend to their waist anyway)The upper torso is lengthy and bizarre, and the legs curve backwards at times and forwards in others. The fact that the torso is so long is unsettling since it means the ribcage and stomach are longer and, therefore, everything below the waist is 'scrunched' together.

OOTS may be a stick figure comic, but everything is kept in proportion.

If it is going to be styled like OOTS, it should be styled entirely like OOTS (or with enough drastic rehauls that it is at least 'inspired by' rather than 'in the style of'). Doing it halfway doesn't help.

But then we run into the second problem - the comic writing is completely uncompelling. I never finished Baldur's Gate. I don't know what's going on. Aina's crypticism is even more befuddling combined with (what I think is) Imoen's style of speech rich with slang. On top of that the comic is at its core mashing together two tenuously unrelated things - Baldur's Gate and OOTS art - and forcing them together. You're essentially relying on people who had an interest in both of those to give your comic a chance, all stolen-art first impression turnoffs notwithstanding.

If you absolutely insist upon the OOTS style and Baldur's Gate setting, then okay. Take Faerun and tamper around in there, just try and disassociate it from Baldur's Gate. There's miles of material for stuff in there, and if you used the Faerun setting and referenced stuff from Baldur's Gate (complete with explanations) it would work better.

I'm truly sorry if I'm shooting you down, but you are improving. Drastically.

So, in short:
If you're copying Burlew's art, get as perfect as you can in mimicking his art.
If you prefer to be 'inspired by' Burlew's art, do some art overhauls that make it look substantially different.
Look into making it less "Directly following Baldur's Gate" and more "in Faerun" if possible.
If not, create a few short intros defining Imoen and Aina and whomever else so the reader can get caught up.

And please, if you can do the above, feel free to come back again. I tried my hand at comics and felt I'd prefer to stick to novels but I'm always interested to seeing new comics develop.

[Meister]

If you intend to explain the backstory to the present situation later a cold open like this is fine, but if you're relying on the reader having played Baldur's Gate, well, don't. Explanations don't even have to be all that detailed.

The use of nadsat is... interesting. I can see it working, but be aware that it's more than just word substitution, and it doesn't mesh well at all with other slang or ordinary swearing.

[Leper Messiah TR]

first of all, thanks for your comments

about the models:
-first of all, I do the comic on my laptop and when I look at it on my computer monitor which has a different resolution ratio it looks clinched together, I never figured out so far whether this problem appears to anybody else looking at the jpgs

anyway, here´s a shot of some character designs

www.freewebs.com/lepermessiahtr/pro.jpg

the point is, on OOTS all medium-sized creatures are basically the same height for ease of use, btw the heads are drawn oversized which kills all proportionality

Aina and Imoen are particularly hard to draw because they are supposed to be
a) extremely tall
b) very skinny
c) uncanny athletic
d) small breasted (also not older than 15 years)

it is VERY difficult to pull off a conglomerate of these physical qualities in the minimalistic style of OOTS, I know that I am not quite there yet, but the strips I posted are not the final (3,5) version, I am still to give the models one last overhaul
it is essential for the story that they look exactly the way they ARE, I can´t draw them the same as the other characters since it would kill everything
I kept the OOTS body to leg length ratio though

in summary, my comic IS styled exactly like OOTS, but expanded with things Burlew has never done (other examples are the (crude) first person view and the dutch angle in #13)

for the hands, since they are very tall their hands are obviously pretty long too, Imoen is supposed to have "monkey arms"
hand lenght is variable as per the OOTS style anyway and I don´t really like the way OOTS characters (e.g. Haley) stretch out their arms to the side
but yeah, I will work on that point for edition 3.5

story telling:
Burlew used the "inside out" method of storytelling (if you are familiar with that chapter of the DMG...), I use the "outside in" build
when Burlew drew the very first strip, he surely didn´t know that there would ever be things like Azure City, the oracle, Roy´s afterlife or whatever
I know the basic outline of my story for the whole 1000 scheduled strips and while of course I don´t know details about many events that happen in between I know exactly how it will end
that gives me the abilty to plan things long-term

Quentin Tarantino once said something about how realistic characters don´t talk about the plot of their lives, but they say whatever comes to their mind -I think this is a very wise thought; since it´s realism ÜBER ALLES for me the characters, who have at least seen each other every day for like 5 years, know basically everything about each other and woudn´t talk about things that are obvious to them; more and more of what has happened will be revealed when there is somebody present it can be told to or certain events trigger it (maybe you know the non-linear storytelling of the Saw movie series, that´s what I´m doing), adding twist after twist, I´m keeping things secret on purpose in the beginning; I also started with #11, not #1 (!)

why Baldur´s Gate: the "divine" storyline of BG goes all the way: from level 1 to godhood - which is important for the main philosophical topics I deal with in the comic (did I already mention it´s a SERIOUS comic?)
also, even the original BG story is non-linear, so to follow it 100% is impossible per se, but I keep the main plot events (and characters), in a twisted way nevertheless
for me the story and the style have always been one, I don´t see any weirdness in this melange (and I´m too untalented to draw in any other style anyway)

plot summary of the 3 strips:
Aina´s father, Gorion (mentioned explicitely) has been killed ("he´s dead Im" #11). Aina was approached by who is likely her father´s murderer to get finished off, which for some reason didn´t take place. (12) That has caused her to suffer from a deep shock. (11-12). Her best friend Imoen appears on the scene, finds her friend to act very odd and tries to get her back on track and find out what has happened. After some efforts, Aina regains her conciousness. (end of 12) Aina tries to repel Imoen back to Candlekeep (which is mentioned explicitely 1 time) to shield her from the catastrophy that she expects will inevitably happen to her soon. Of course her best friend won´t agree and finally reaches her goal of staying with Aina through "semi-violence". (13)

well, that´s outside-in storytelling
I think it´s perfectly possible to understand the situation as such... try reading the comic again with this outline in mind, I think it makes sense after all
of course you can´t see the "big picture", but as long as the characters behave as they are supposed to be, everything is in its right place; everything that is in the dark now will be explained eventually, may it be 10 or 500 strips later... :shifty: e.g. why Sarevok (the armored figure in 12) didn´t finish her off...

as I said, the comic is mostly for myself, I won´t bother with having it online trying to attract a crowd anymore, I think. I have a story in my mind which has to get out one way or another...

and about the rip-off accusations: I do not only rip OOTS off, I rip EVERYTHING off I like, e.g. the intro bit in #11 is from Star Wars (duh!), the hanging dialogue in #12 is from Waiting for Godot, Imoen´s slang is Nadsat from A clockwork orange (and also cant from the Planescape setting), "What an odd thing to say." from 8BIT and so on...

I´m really looking forward for your answer

PS: one important question: is it an easy task to discern from the comic that English is not my first language? I hope not...

PPS: and I would be interested in your opinion of my decision to use more and bigger close-ups... (please mind that my panel height is bigger than the OOTS one since my main characters are bigger and with original panel heights there would be no room for speech bubbles)

PPPS: and also your view on my decision to use extensive punctuation for "timing" reasons, does it make sense per se or should it be meta-explained?

[Leper Messiah TR]

Originally Posted by Meister

If you intend to explain the backstory to the present situation later a cold open like this is fine, but if you're relying on the reader having played Baldur's Gate, well, don't. Explanations don't even have to be all that detailed.

The use of nadsat is... interesting. I can see it working, but be aware that it's more than just word substitution, and it doesn't mesh well at all with other slang or ordinary swearing.

language itself is a big problem in my ventilations
after all, my characters do not speak English, they speak Chondathan (the main language in the Sword Coast Region where the story is set), which is displayed in English for ease of use
(Tolkien invented his own languages as a result of this kind of problem...)
Imoen isn´t exactly from the Sword Coast Region, she came to Candlekeep at age 10 (as per the game) so her mother tongue was not Chondathan - so her odd slang originates from her original first language
so Imoen grew up in Candlekeep, where nobody but her (and her foster father Winthrop) speaks this slang (that is translated into Nadsat (and cant) for ease of use), so it´s remarkable, at least, that after 5-6 years she still doesn´t speak like anybody else

*realistically*, she doesn´t speak Nadsat (as Nadsat doesn´t exist in Faerûn), she speaks a slangy Chondathan, which doesn´t exist in our reality...

I know it´s complicated...

of course all that doesn´t make your demur less true, but I will find a way to explain it in-story "eventually"

[Mirai Gen]

You can't do it "Eventually." You've already shut off your reader by that point.

in summary, my comic IS styled exactly like OOTS, but expanded with things Burlew has never done (other examples are the (crude) first person view and the dutch angle in #13)

Height can be reflected off of more than just elongating the torso. What you have right now is beyond that. You could try (Since it's simple art) drawing a normal Imoen sans head, then drag it long and put her head on top. Her body would be longer but it would look more OOTS-ish and her head would be in proportion.

Barring that the reflection of Imoen's body structure described really isn't that big of a deal in the long run, you could just as easily throw it out and make them all Medium-sized like OOTS. OOTS may not have done the things you're trying but you can't take 'simple' and stretch it into 'kinda simple but complex in areas sort of.'

plot summary of the 3 strips:

Far too much of those summaries is not being explained in comic. There are ways to break it down but the fact is you're just not telling the story right, and the use of slang isn't working.

Call me crazy but OOTS operated on the principles of Simple Art, Funny To Start, Epic Right Now. This is operating on Played Baldur's Gate, Fan Of OOTS, Gets Epic Later. There's really no driving force as to why anyone at all would read your comic, especially since getting involved with the comic basically means you'd have to learn Imoen's language, the backstory to all of Baldur's Gate, and understand the aesthetic reasons why you differ from OOTS so much.

That's lots to expect from a reader hoping to just read and click away.

[Mike McC]

My only problem is that when making your own comic, you really shouldn't style yourself after a different comic, that you should actually go out and try to develop your own style. That way people won't automatically assume that this is just some hack copy job, and would get a greater deal of respect for your work. Really, the only time that using the same art style works in your favor is parodies.

[Mirai Gen]

I've said that too but it seems he's got his heart set on it.

[TopHatAssassin]

Aw, let him have some fun. As long as money's not being made from this, it's all good.

More or less repeating here, but the art has definitely improved. However, I found myself turned off from reading halfway through the first page, there. From what I saw on the others, this is an awful wordy start, and the slang only made matters worse. Mind you, if this is on the "You have to play the game first to understand it" angle that everyone's talking about, then that's understandable. Not my cup of tea, but understandable.

Still... I don't like wading through words.

[Leper Messiah TR]

simple-o-matic version:

1. NO connection with OOTS save the style
2. you do NOT have to have played the game (but it helps in the exact same way it helps to know D&D to understand OOTS)
3. the like 10 words of nadsat that I have used do not make the language impossible to understand
4. if I wouldn´t suck at drawing I would use manga style (see 1)
5. if I´m wordy (which I´m not), what about http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

6. NOT COMEDY
7. not meant for casual readers, I never tried to appeal to "anyone at all", in fact I said 2 times already it´s mainly for myself
8. why should I succumb to a hostile crowd? (see 7)
9. NOT COMEDY! BUT REALISM - tell me WHERE it is unrealistic!!!
10. I´m not doing this comic for the sake of doing a comic, I´m doing this comic to tell the story I do tell (and nobody of you has even made a comment on the actual story, which is the MAIN important thing for me)

11. the reason why I posted this here is to get feedback on how to improve it
using a different style is NOT improving it (see 4)
using a different story is NOT improving it (see 10)

- so we´ve got those improvent ideas so far:
hands: OK, I will try to improve those
models: I know that they´re not perfect and they will get better
style: I simply have no choice on this point
language: I´m perfectly satisfied with the language and it will stay that way
story telling: like I said, nobody I know has done a similar thing before, so it isn´t surprising at all that this point would be critizised, this doesn´t have any significance (I don´t say I´m right, I say it is impossible!!! to decide after 3/1000 whether I am wrong or right)

story:...
characters:...

I wonder how many strips Burlew had before he released them...