Please have a look on my OOTS styled comic based on Baldur´s Gate - again!

[Leper Messiah TR]

first of all, I DO care about your answers, and I DON´T think myself perfect, else I wouldn´t spend hours on answering your posts...

this IS a beta, I know that the comic will never be "perfect" for you but one day it might become "perfect" for me and I believe I can gain additional insight through your comments

but there´s exactly 3 things I can´t take out of the project:
1. D&D
2. Baldur´s Gate
3. stick figure style
- so demanding these 3 things to go is missing the point of the feedback I am trying to get

@ Cid Highwind
-because dice were invented in the ancient times, so I *can* assume them to exist in a medieval-based fantasy world
-the dice part is not meant in the D&D, but an actual game of dice

-eh, and "words" like MNBRVCNP! aren´t?! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html
tell me how it isn´t the same exact thing, except that I use actual words that can be looked up in the net anyway; also I assume that after like 10 usages of a nadsat word someone who tried to understand would most likely read them like they were English
I do not use Nadsat for no reason


the gender contradistinction in this style is displayed exclusively by body shape - she hasn´t a rectangle body and is therefore not male (of course when a character is wearing a robe you can´t necessary tell the gender), and I had Imoen think "her" (page 3) which ultimately confirms this
she is meant to look kinda boyish anyway...

@Fifthfiend
why would anybody read anything?
I´m a comic artist (love the sound of that), not some marketing guy, so I don´t know...

why would anybody find anything interesting? - again, how would I know? the story is interesting for me, so it might be interesting for somebody else than me, or not. only one way to find out...

about the "I don´t know what´s going on" thing:
you have to take the 3 strips as a "situation", not as the whole thing; if you read it carefully it IS possible to understand the situation as such without having background knowledge, and with every strip more things will be revealed until in the very end all things go full circle; I´m not the first to do this kind of storytelling (like I previously said, see the SAW movies for an example)

@ BraveFencer Shinryuu
of course people don´t watch Family Guy and American Day, do they? (they´re Simpsons rip-offs if you didn´t know that)
how many people actually know OOTS anyway: 50000? maybe a 100000, but definitely not more, not necessarily my target audience, if I would have one

@Noncontradictory
I did never expect expectations
TSWATG is a very slow-paced story this is the key point of this whole post
if you guys argue that your patience is not high enough to read the comic I write thoroughly then I can´t counter this, if you say it is a waste of time because it´s wordy and doesn´t contain the correct information that is necessary to understand the big picture I can´t do nothing about it since TSWATG will always be slow paced and wordy because it is meant to be realistic, and it isn´t boring for me, if it is for you - I can´t change your penchants
my comic is about feelings and thoughts, about *who* knows *what*, about philosophical ideas - I agree that this is likely to be more boring than anything else, e.g. D&D rule jokes, but this is the only way I can do it because the story is a part of myself so much
(but "yes, there will be blood" - lots of it)

@Mirai Gen
ok, the crouch kick is a remnant from 2nd edition (which lasted 9 strips), which had a very different ambition (more comically), that has been scrapped for the current 3rd edition (with the next look update it will be 3.5)
it remained for the following reason: if you actually trudged through the 3 strips, you might have realized Imoen´s utter affection for Aina that goes to the extent of her being very clingy and even violent (I think this has been made very clear in the first 3), the kick is to hint at how far Imoen might go in this eagerness, to *cure* Aina she actually *hurts* her

the dice part is actually a bluff - it (which is actually the D-story (did I say epic already?)) has no direct connection with the A-story but a very loose indirect one (yeah and I know people are not too fond of bluffs in the very first strip, but that´s the kind of storyteller I am)

as seen in 13, Aina has actually told the whole story to Imoen already, and more and more of what happened that night will be seen through flashbacks

like I told you, OOTS (and 8BIT) are "inside out" stories, OOTS started very simple with like 5 new facts introduced in every strip, I have like 30-50 (if you want I can name them for you for any strip, I´m not overexaggerating)because I do an "outside in" story, it is just impossible for me to start that simple

@phil
again with the bubbles? *sigh*
there should be no problem with the bubble order, my speech or thought bubbles ALWAYS go from left to right, and from top to bottom (with the left-right axis having priority), in the case that multiple bubbles are used in a panel the same rules do occur

I did a test comic with the original OOTS panel size and found out that there would be no room for the speech bubbles, therefore I raised the panel height 50% or something (can´t remember), I can´t extend the panel sizes any more (because it looks stupid e.g. when nothing is said in a panel) and scaling down the type makes it hard to read
so, yeah, I do run out of room all the time, but I can´t help it at the moment, maybe I gain some insight in the process
also, in OOTS the speech bubbles nearly always extend the borders of the panel too

about the height thing: every medium character WILL still have the same size (which means I use the same base model to build it (you can see some of those in my 2nd post on page 1)) EXCEPT Aina and Imoen, the latter of which is somewhat taller; the height thing is one of the "hardcoded" features of TSWATG, which means it can´t be scrapped without the whole story going to hell

I think the intro part in the beginning of #11 makes it clear that it is the first one

I had to make a point in the first 3, even if you can´t see that point just now, that is why they were 2-pagers, I can´t just cut a strip after a random panel

about the plagiarism thingy:
I don´t CLAIM to have copyright, and it is meant to be a non-commercial project to the end anyway
the story is based on BG, but with severe extensions and tweaks
the characters are my own

and about the wordy thingy:
I used the exact amount of words Imoen and Aina would actually use
Imoen talks much, slangy and fast
Aina talks little, overly complicated and rather slow
like I said somewhere above, slow-paced is the key word

"Get up, goth chick" and "That guy is dead." Oh, and "Let's go to town."
not even one of them hits the mark
and "goth" is so wrong for so many reasons...

@ grthwllms
that´s the difference between oots and my comic:
strip #11 could as well be #490

thank you for your comments!

PS:
and for the last thought of my post:
can the style support the story?
I do think it can, with additions I have already begun to introduce, like the sad/passionate "reverse angry brow".
I don´t need really complicated shots (in the beginning), and once more characters are introduced the repetitiveness of the main 2 will be gravely alleviated.

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by From the third strip

"I cannot descry the meaning of the situational totality."

*double take* Say what?

The speech bubbles seem fine to me, they read just about as easily as Burlew's or Clev's. They overlap other panels, but shrug, in their place you would just see empty space anyway. As along as it's not crazy.

I do have the unfortunate image of a young teenager in his room drawing comics about lesbian D&D though. And that could be an introspective comment about myself, but yeah...Yeah. :p

I do have a HUGE complaint though. The manner of speech of your characters are so annoying. It's not necessarily what they're saying, but how you're showing it to me, the reader. Specifically, the use of **'s around every tenth word, and the caps, and the bolding. First of all, pick one way to show emphasis. And make sure that choice isn't using stars.

It's a comic, it's visual, use facial expressions on the characters to give an emphasis or connotation to their speech bubbles. Bold when necessary.

[Mirai Gen]

You're basically rationalizing the fact that us - your readers - have complaints about the comic by justifying each of your actions in a long-winded explanation.

We really don't care about your explanations, because the comic is too wordy, unsightly, and not interesting. No reader is going to give you the time of day if every part of your comic that turns them away has a paragraph-long justification of it's flaws.

Two things that really bug me, however:

tell me how it isn´t the same exact thing, except that I use actual words that can be looked up in the net anyway; also I assume that after like 10 usages of a nadsat word someone who tried to understand would most likely read them like they were English
I do not use Nadsat for no reason

That was a cryptogram and completely necessary to the plot. You didn't have to know what Haley said, because nobody in the comic understood what she was saying anyway.

You can't compare slang and cryptograms, they are not the same thing.

And the excuse of "Anyone can look it up," I mean, come on. You're basically asking your reader to reader to go out of their way while reading a comic for fun and research something? I mean it's called work, and I don't know why anyone would try and make their reader do that.

why would anybody find anything interesting? - again, how would I know? the story is interesting for me, so it might be interesting for somebody else than me, or not. only one way to find out...

Yes, there is only one way to find out. And you just found it. And you're responding like you have the whole time. "Well what do you know?"

We're your readers and we are pointedly telling you that your comic is uninteresting and we gave you ways to fix it. You are stubbornly refusing to change. The point of asking for feedback is to use it, not explain it away. This isn't some obscure DND joke we don't get, this is your comic not making sense.

So really if you can't have the courtesy to accept and use our critique instead of rationalizing everything, I don't know what else I can tell you.

[TopHatAssassin]

Your passion is admirable, I'll admit, though perhaps wrongly placed. It seems to have elevated itself to stubbornness, in which case I don't see the purpose of asking for advice.

The way I'm taking this is that your project is for personal use alone, maybe to share around with some buddies while playing a riveting round of your favourite roleplaying game, I don't know. Which prompts me to ask... why? Why all this bother asking us, a bunch of anonymous net-dwellers, what we think of your comic if you're going to butt heads with us every time we produce a criticism? It's counter-productive, the way I see it. Actually no, it's just redundant. The objections to criticism you're throwing up appear to me as just a highly-decorated middle finger aimed at my face.

Your idea is sound, but your execution of said idea is, in all honesty, pretty bad. Bad for us anyway, but if it works for you, then go with it. Whatever floats your boat.

[Mike McC]

Originally Posted by Leper Messiah TR

but there´s exactly 3 things I can´t take out of the project:
1. D&D
2. Baldur´s Gate
3. stick figure style
- so demanding these 3 things to go is missing the point of the feedback I am trying to get

Okay, so you have limited artistic skills, and want to use stick figures. Still, that doesn't mean you are ONLY limited to using Order of the Stick's style. Experiment around, tweak some, and make it your own.

@ Cid Highwind
-because dice were invented in the ancient times, so I *can* assume them to exist in a medieval-based fantasy world
-the dice part is not meant in the D&D, but an actual game of dice

That fact could have been made clearer, then.

-eh, and "words" like MNBRVCNP! aren´t?! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html
tell me how it isn´t the same exact thing, except that I use actual words that can be looked up in the net anyway; also I assume that after like 10 usages of a nadsat word someone who tried to understand would most likely read them like they were English

Well, the whole purpose of that strip was a joke, and also establishing a plot point. She was supposed to be indecipherable and you couldn't understand her. Choosing that strip to validate your point only illustrates how little you may actually know about writing.

@ BraveFencer Shinryuu
of course people don´t watch Family Guy and American Day, do they? (they´re Simpsons rip-offs if you didn´t know that)

Actually, The Simpsons and Family Guy had very different styles of humor and joke presentation when Family Guy came out. In fact, Family Guy was pretty much unlike anything else on network television at the time of it's debut, with it's rapid fire, unpredicatble cut-away jokes. If it was ripping off Simpsons because it was animated, then why don't we go the whole monty and say The Simpsons were a rip-off of The Flintstones, why don't we? In fact, that's actually a lot more reasonable a comparison.

how many people actually know OOTS anyway: 50000? maybe a 100000, but definitely not more, not necessarily my target audience, if I would have one

Actually, website traffic surveys have consistantly put Order of the Stick in the top ten most widely read webcomics out there. It is an extremely well known comic.

TSWATG is a very slow-paced story this is the key point of this whole post
if you guys argue that your patience is not high enough to read the comic I write thoroughly then I can´t counter this, if you say it is a waste of time because it´s wordy and doesn´t contain the correct information that is necessary to understand the big picture I can´t do nothing about it since TSWATG will always be slow paced and wordy because it is meant to be realistic, and it isn´t boring for me, if it is for you - I can´t change your penchants

We aren't complaining because it's slow, we are complaining because you are doing absolutely nothing to hook your readers in. That is not a slow pace or wordiness that's doing that. That is sloppy, confusing, and rather boring story writing doing that, with improper pacing (note: a slow pace is not an improper pacing). If wordy drove people away, then Tycho would have stopped writing his newsposts a long time ago.

You know, I was going to respond to everything else in that post, but honestly, I neither have the energy nor the remaining patience to correct every single one of your misconceptions. I'll just say it flat out. You are not that good of a writer. You are not that good at analyzing your own work, and the work of others. You are so bent on being right about everything in your comic that you are, either conciously or not, warping every peice of criticism to a point where you can wholly refute it. Doing that is as bad, if not worse, than totally ignoring any criticism and advice people are willing to give. You've pushed people in this thread from wanting to help out all the way to bitterly trying to show you what they mean when you go "NO YOU TOTALLY MEANT THIS TANGENTALLY RELATED THING, AND THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM". You are deditcated in not listening to any help, and stubbornly dead set in doing it your own way, wether or not you actually realize to what extent you are doing it.

I doubt that point will get through, but I felt it had to be said. Please realize that none of this is meant to be inflammatory or insulting, but rather these are my honest observations.

[shiney]

I would recommend you get at least ten or fifteen comics before coming up for a critique. I am with fifthfiend -- I don't know what on earth is going on after three comics, and if it is a slow paced story you may wish for there to be more of it before submitting for critiquing.

As for the critiquing, some of you guys in your earnest pursuit of honesty are being unreasonably harsh. There is no need for seven pages of negative critique if it can be condensed into something more concise. Supportive responses are a must-have, of which there are many, but unsupportive responses will only get the defensive reaction that is so prevalent from the author's own posts.

To the author: pay attention to some of the things some of these people are saying. If this is to be a work to be released, you would do well to have your public pleased. If it is solely for personal satisfaction then it would be best if you did not show anything any longer. Analyze their words and cut out the bullshit and unintentional attacks and focus on the message that lies beneath. The big draw here is that "nothing is happening". Make something happen, or reword your previous stuff to make more sense and liven it up perhaps. As it stands right now, the first three episodes should really grab a reader by the scruff and get them wondering who the fuck that black monster is and what the shit is going on. Right now it's calling them long distance to talk about their dying great aunts.

[Leper Messiah TR]

well, I *could* watch some South Park episodes online, but instead... *sigh*

@ Azisien

I´m 22
just because they love each other doesn´t mean they´re lesbians

ComicSans, the type I use, doesn´t allow italics ->
1. I replaced this effect via the ** which can depict either sounds or activities like *shrug* or *sigh* or emphasis
like in Can you give me *three* apples, please? (not two)
Can you give me three *apples*? (not bananas)

2.while CAPITALS suggest a different kind of stress
like Can you give me an *apple*, please? - FUCK YOU, it´s mine!

3.bold is used to highlight either parts of words like ourselves (not "yourself" in #13) or words I (the author)

4.words in bigger type are simply said (or rather shouted) louder

5. a hyphen - suggests that either somebody´s speech is cut off abruptly or starts abruptly
like "I think you should-" - "Say no more."

and so on...

annoying, maybe, but also necessary, maybe
for me the facial expressions aren´t enough

@Mirai Gen
well if I wasn´t able to explain everything I have done in my comic why would I have done it in the first place? of course I can do this

you say flaw, I say feature

for the last time, fixing and scrapping are two different things

isn´t the fact that I CAN rationalize everything the proof that I have thought everything through thoroughly?

and for the third time, it isn´t true that I don´t use your critique

@Tophatassassin
why? is the main question of TSWATG
why get up and fight the odds when you can lay on the ground and wait for death...
why try to objectify when everything you say leads to a tackle from a different direction...

@BraveFencer Shinryuu
my WIS score is too low to invent my own style (now that´s a D&D joke that´s better than Burlew´s WIS related joke because it actually makes sense)

the Flintstones were a rip-off of The Honeymooners (I´m not American so it is unusual that I know this)

what would I write if I "would listen to your help"? I simply don´t know...

@Shiney

"If it is solely for personal satisfaction then it would be best if you did not show anything any longer."

I can and I do gain something from this try. Or not.

"I would recommend you get at least ten or fifteen comics before coming up for a critique. I am with fifthfiend -- I don't know what on earth is going on after three comics, and if it is a slow paced story you may wish for there to be more of it before submitting for critiquing."

See you in a 20. Or not.

[Cid Highwind]

Okay, I still dont understand. How could someone rolling badly and Imoen missing, then rolling again and Imoen kicking someone in the crotch by accident be construed as anything but D&D? And if its not D&D, and its just some dice rolls over some guy on the right side of the frames, what does it have to do with anything?

[Azisien]

No no, I get what you were trying to accomplish with your twelve different kinds of emphasis, I just didn't think it looked good. At all. I don't need an explanation, I just didn't think it was good. It caused distraction from what I was reading, because I would always pause at stars be sound out the word stupidly. And stars suck to begin with, so like, merge those forms of emphasis. It's so far from necessary, if the word far itself was somehow transformed into a person, that person say "It's so me from necessary."

Edit: I mean, honestly, I didn't notice many facial expressions in the comic. I might have been skimming it too much (doubt it), but since we like comparing you to OOTS, I notice Burlew uses the facial expressions in an excellent manner, the majority of the time. You don't need the "different forms" of emphasis because while it's great you've thought through all these distinctions, well, thinking through something that is annoying doesn't make it any less annoying. Use facial expressions, use bold for emphasis, occasionally use caps lock and bold for yell-demons shrieking on the cacophonous plains of Scream. If you want a character to say Fuck you! Then write it as I just did. There's another way to make emphasis: have a panel or box or whatever the hell they're called with just the one character saying it. It's a visual way to display emphasis, or deliver a punchline, or whatever. It's used so frequently by every webcomic ever to grave the ever-fields of ever-land it's not even funny (ever).

Good luck!

[Mirai Gen]

isn´t the fact that I CAN rationalize everything the proof that I have thought everything through thoroughly?

I'd imagine you got everything thought through for years in this comic. But it isn't being shown. You can't tell me that your comic is interesting because you know what's going to happen and that should be enough. Because readership doesn't work that way.

You need to grab your reader by the balls and demand their attention, especially in a slow, epic-scale comic.

you say flaw, I say feature

...what.