The Order of the Stick Megathread

[Mirai Gen]

Originally Posted by Aerozord

Isn't it logical for her to kill everyone to save her very existance and litterally let god sort out the victims.

Yeah, you guys have fun with that.

[Odjn]

I don't really like Haley anymore. Is she Chaotic Neutral or something now?

I actually like Celia despite her flaws because well, if people actually tried things her way ( and not just the bad guys ) Redcloak's village wouldn't have been slaughtered, goblin persecution would have never gotten off the ground, etc.
What Rich is trying to get at is someone who is really Lawful Good- that is, she adheres to the law and is generally good. Granted she did some dumb things- running off to Greysky city- but a lot of the time if Haley would learn to not keep secrets from her allies and tried to be super vague, Celia would probably not have gone down there.

[Toast]

I still do, and I see no reason to consider her as chaotic neutral. She's gotten a lot more realistic/pragmatic during her time as leader. Yeah, it probably wasn't a good idea to leave Belkar to his curse when he could have helped her out, but that was a bad call and people make bad calls from time to time. That and he wouldn't have had as good an opportunity to go through his vision quest and have a moment to be a total bad-ass if she didn't.

but a lot of the time if Haley would learn to not keep secrets from her allies and tried to be super vague, Celia would probably not have gone down there.

I don't know, being told that going to a certain place is a bad idea by a world-traveling adventurer would have said to me that that person had probably been there and it wasn't a good idea, so maybe I should avoid going there. That's just common sense talking.

I actually like Celia despite her flaws because well, if people actually tried things her way

they would likely get killed or captured. Just think of how well Celia's philosophy would have gone over during the siege of Azure City.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Toast

they would likely get killed or captured. Just think of how well Celia's philosophy would have gone over during the siege of Azure City.

Or how it DID go during the thief's guild attack.

[Solid Snake]

Eh, my opinion is that this was a mediocre strip that Rich Burlew almost intended to be mediocre. It's a technique often used, in which the characters essentially take breathers for a chapter (or three) and we're saddled with extraneous information. We may not like to take a moment off from the adventure, but a breakneck pace just isn't feasible. If epic plot development in the form of violent conflict is always happening in every waking moment of OOTS, we'd quickly lose our interest in the heart and the soul of the strip, which is its believable and likable characters. The characters gain immensely when they have moments to expose their small quirks and character traits.

If nothing else, this was a nice moment for Roy to have that shows us how he interacts differently with his love interest than with the team members we're accustomed to seeing him with. I strongly disagree with those who believe this is an out-of-character interaction for Roy. Yes, this is 'out-of-character' in the sense that 99% of the time, Roy would be far too pragmatic to indulge in such thoughts. However, he's just returned to the living from the afterlife...that's bound to put a philosophical bent in anyone's logic, no matter how short-lived...and he's also just had a profound, cathartic experience with the woman he loves. For Roy to subsequently feel a moment's introspection seems in character to me, actually, and it does slightly increase my respect for the character, insofar as the author has not left him a flat, underdeveloped series of stereotypes. Like any other human being, Roy has moments where his submissive or subordinate personality traits briefly overtake his dominant persona. (We all do the same...the quiet introvert has a night of socially adept tomfoolery, the battle-hardened warrior becomes a huge softy while talking to his daughter about her dreams, etc.)

[Odjn]

Originally Posted by Toast

I still do, and I see no reason to consider her as chaotic neutral. She's gotten a lot more realistic/pragmatic during her time as leader. Yeah, it probably wasn't a good idea to leave Belkar to his curse when he could have helped her out, but that was a bad call and people make bad calls from time to time. That and he wouldn't have had as good an opportunity to go through his vision quest and have a moment to be a total bad-ass if she didn't.


I don't know, being told that going to a certain place is a bad idea by a world-traveling adventurer would have said to me that that person had probably been there and it wasn't a good idea, so maybe I should avoid going there. That's just common sense talking.


they would likely get killed or captured. Just think of how well Celia's philosophy would have gone over during the siege of Azure City.

Um? If the gods had shown concern for the lives of the non PC races, there'd be no Redcloak or Dark One. If the humans had listened to the Dark One and worked something out peacefully, there'd been no reason for him to set his followers out to manipulate the Snarl. If the paladins had realized that hey, maybe murdering sentient beings is wrong unless they were a quasi threat and accepted goblin existence and offered them some farmland and stuff to build their civilization, Redcloak's village wouldn't have been massacred and he would've never created Xykon. Etc, Etc.

Wow, it looks like maybe murdering people on sight leads to a lot of trouble. But sarcasm aside, Celia is too naive for the Xykons of the world but for any reasonable non-psycho evil guy would probably prefer less death overall.

Originally Posted by Krylo

Or how it DID go during the thief's guild attack.

You mean once the two unreasonable members were out of the way, negotiation won the day?

Also, I'm pretty much referring to little incidents and Haley killing Crystal, which in itself is not an evil act but she specifically used Crystal accepting her as an ally to murder her. That is either neutral or evil; definitely not good.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Odjn

You mean once the two unreasonable members were out of the way, negotiation won the day?

You mean the negotiation that only worked because they had killed so many thieves guild members already?

And even then only after she broke down and got violent to intimidate them?

AND all this after she got captured and was generally of no help whatsoever because of her pacifism? The whole thing could have been resolved much more quickly if she had been slightly more pragmatic and rained lightning death down upon everyone in the first place.

[BitVyper]

rained lightning death down upon everyone in the first place.

That was specifically pointed out to be a bad idea as I recall. *Evasion*

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by BitVyper

That was specifically pointed out to be a bad idea as I recall. *Evasion*

Only after Haley was run through leaving Celia outnumbered 2 to 1 against the two highest level thieves.

Also, this was by Roy, who was slightly biased against Celia risking herself, to the point of hoping for Celia to leave Haley outnumbered when she was obviously losing the battle she was in until Celia drew off a portion of the attackers and fled.

Now if instead of that she had flown up against the ceiling and rained lightning while Haley mopped them up on the ground, Haley wouldn't have been outnumbered against Crystal and Br...whatever...

[Toast]

Or how it DID go during the thief's guild attack.

You mean the negotiation that only worked because they had killed so many thieves guild members already?

You kind of already said what I was going to reply with.

Um? If the gods had shown concern for the lives of the non PC races, there'd be no Redcloak or Dark One. If the humans had listened to the Dark One and worked something out peacefully, there'd been no reason for him to set his followers out to manipulate the Snarl. If the paladins had realized that hey, maybe murdering sentient beings is wrong unless they were a quasi threat and accepted goblin existence and offered them some farmland and stuff to build their civilization, Redcloak's village wouldn't have been massacred and he would've never created Xykon. Etc, Etc.

That's an awful lot of 'ifs'. Don't get me wrong, I see the point you're making. In most circumstances diplomacy is the best option. Right up to the point where it fails.

Also, while I probably could have made myself more clear, I thought the last line of my previous post made it clear I was referring to Celia's valuing of pacifism and life over self-defense.

For instance.

Wow, it looks like maybe murdering people on sight leads to a lot of trouble.

I can get behind this, because it does cause a lot of trouble.

You mean once the two unreasonable members were out of the way, negotiation won the day?

This, however, I have an issue with. Self-defense is rarely unreasonable, and certainly not in this particular instance.

AND all this after she got captured and was generally of no help whatsoever because of her pacifism?

This is what bugs me most about Celia. She's a damsel in distress, which is the last thing any story needs. Reading through this story arc with her has been like watching a horror movie with a lingerie clad woman who's about to do something stupid and you yell at the screen "don't do that, you moron!" And then she does it anyway. And then you sigh and lament that the author couldn't think of a better role for a woman to play other than being scantily clad and doing something stupid.