Pokemon Umbral Discussion 38: Shenanigans At Dawn, Sir!

[Menarker]

I still say you deserve a buff in terms of how you gain rage or attack. :3

[DanteFalcon]

I won't complain if one happens to come my way

[Menarker]

Well, I honestly think you need it.

1) Multiple aspects of your class require rage. Paradigm Shifts cost 60 rage and then there are Sync Techs which REQUIRE you to be in Paradigm shift in the first place to activate. You need a whopping 100 rage in order to do any of your sync techs in the same turn that you activate a technique. And that's before stuff like Divide and Focus. Some changes are required to make this less of a hurdle.

2) You don't have any manner of gaining rage fast. You only attack once, and not as powerfully as a Slayer (and with less resistance and you even have weaknesses). You are by yourself so every attack that hits you is usually a big concern. You only can carry 3 items (if I recall correct), so it's not like you can spam Rage Rockets if you want to carry healing items.

3) Yes, you can shift into different forms, so you got a bit of diversity, but that's part of the problem. Basically, only one of those forms are helping you at any time in combat. When you're using any one form, the others are sitting there uselessly while the form you ARE using is less effective than if you were a slayer or even two pokemons sometimes. Multiform transformation classes works best when you are effective in almost everything but stand out with one or two particular strengths and one or two particular weakness/defiency.


What I propose!

1) Change Paradigm Shift so it costs 20 rage each use and you start with three uses, instead of you having to pay the 60 rage up front when you just want to use one turn's worth to cast a technique. That'll make the rage cost to you more mangagable (Thus the Deva 4 upgrade of making Paradigm shift last 5 turns instead gives you 2 extra uses.) Also allow rage gain to be possible when attacking or being attacked. (Level 1)

2) Increased Item storage so you can carry more Rage rockets or healing items. (Level 2-3 upgrade?)

3) Pokebrids can equip pokemon items much like real pokemons can. Let's allow a custom item for you at level 4 (now) or 5 if you intend to go Pokebrid next level too. You can probably come up with an item that gives you rage or helps protect you or alter your moves to something damn useful.

4) Change Sync Techs so you don't NEED to be in Paradigm shift to use it, but that it gains an immense boost of some sort if you are in them, like an additional valuable effect or just plain more power. I'd be iffy about lowering costs because I still think spamming techniques should really should only be done in more ideal situations. With the above changes, you could enter Paradigm Shift and cast two Sync Tech if you had the maximum of 100 rage.

5) Maybe an extra action specifically for status moves like buffing or status ailments or something like that at higher levels. (Kinda like a Double Attack, but not quite) Of course, I'd suggest that Protect/Detect be left out of the picture. Otherwise, you could feasibly cast Protect every turn or two while still being able to attack.


What you guys think?

[Dracorion]

AB, I propose that we ban Menarker and Geminex from interacting directly ever again.

Anyway, my response to your guys' little clusterfuck, and a couple of questions for AB and Geminex, will come soon, when I have time to sit down and write a proper post.

[Menarker]

Awww, but I thought we were having a rather civilized conversation.

Or is it just that the two of us write so damn much?

[Dracorion]

Yeah, you bastard.

In thirty-seven threads of insanity that we've gone through, this is the first time I've had to struggle to catch up.

You made me stop and reread!

Originally Posted by Geminex

...
What, seriously? I'd be fine with it taking 4 ranks in both classes. But I think that 4 should be the minimum for either class.
And is the support system even still on the table? Cause maybe we could combine some of this.

Oh come on!

I mean, I get where you're coming from. You think that Battle Masters and such should only be able to show off their mastery of both classes by fighting at the same time as my pokemon only when they've advanced enough in both.

BUT! I think that it should be less a matter of expertise and more experience. Basically, the Battle Master should be able to fight at the same time as their pokemon once they've spent enough time getting used to both classes, regardless of how much they've advanced in either. Which would be when they have eight ranks in either one.

About Demonshippynessing: Menarker, I'm fairly certain we would shut each other down so hard if we tried to get all the best upgrades of any given class with no drawbacks in our Demon upgrades. That fact is so set in stone that no one would think about trying it.

About Slayer motivation: Actually, Pierce doesn't have a fight-or-flight response. Or if he does, he's pretty much always stuck in "fight". When the going gets tough, he gets tougher, y'know? This will lessen a bit after his sidequest. But let's face it, there's no way to beat the defiance out of him.

And you already know he has about as much intent to kill as a bowl of wet grapes.

Originally Posted by Geminex

I might hate myself for saying this, but...
I have a suggestion to make.
This is what could happen:

1: We finalize all the Balance Regulations (BR) and balance all the classes up to level 5
2: We write up the basic ruleset for the battle system (I'm talking about stuff like actions here. Not entirely necessary, but I want it down on paper. I'll do it if no-one else wants to)
3: We reach level 5
4: Our level progression from 5 onwards... is self-customized. We'll write something up for ourselves. It'll probably take us a while, especially considering that ultimately, the players' power has to be equal, but we'll manage. The stuff that AB wrote up could definitely be used as a template, a source for ideas. And I'm thinking that even while we're customizing, we should assign each level-up a class. So even if Pierce is getting something that's not usually in the Slayer repertoire, if it's Slayer-ish it counts as a Slayer level.
Basically, we use the stuff that AB's already posted as a sort of template, we each write up our own upgrade "schedule", which then gets balanced by everyone else until we're equal (though one the BR are finalized, there shouldn't be too much balancing necessary, since you'll be self-balancing. Hopefully).
Sooo...
What do you think?

Absolutely not.

If we each get to customize our own advanced classes, Menarker is going to min-max his shit so hard, and AB will aprove it, and then we will have to go through this little trainwreck between the two of you again and I won't have it.

What I propose is that we should finish all the Balance Regulations. Then someone writes up some changes to the advanced classes, based on the current ones. We discuss them, reach a unanimous decision (or a majority vote), and those are the upgrades that go for everyone.

I'll start:

Right, so, I thought about the changes I would make to the upgrades for every class, following Geminex's suggestion for only changing the advanced classes (except for Pokebrid, because I agree with Menarker that they could use a little buff).

Overblade (Level 3)

- All stats gain 15 points.
- Overblades can use Sweep on any two targets, not necessarily adjacent to one another.
- Overblades gain an immunity to one of the following Pokemon types (Bug, Dark, Fighting, Flying, Grass, Ground, Normal, Rock, Steel)

Basically, instead of Double Attack I'm proposing Overblades get to use Sweep on any two targets. I worry, however, that this is too much of a nerf, since Double Attack would mean getting Rage from the extra attack, and Sweep produces no Rage. Also, Double Attack means the Overblade could attack the same target twice.

So maybe we can do something like, I dunno, reduce the Rage cost for Sweep and Focus in one of the Overblade upgrades?

Pokemon Breeder (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated goes from 5 to 7.
- Can create a new custom hold item.
- Breeders can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for one of their leader pokemon.

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Pokemon Breeder (Level 3)

- Can create a new custom hold item.
- Breeders can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for their second leader pokemon.

-----
Pokemon Breeder (Level 5)

- Base Rage generated goes from 7 to 10.
- 2nd custom move availability.

Basically, the problem with Ability Shift is that the ability the pokemon would get would either be overpowered and not thematic, or thematic and useless (except for the rare cases where a pokemon would actually benefit from a different ability).

So I'm proposing that we let Breeders give a second ability to one of their leader pokemon (like how Pokemercs get three abilities at once). And then for the second upgrade of this they'd be able to choose a second ability for their other leader pokemon (not the one that already got the last upgrade). This ability would have to be proposed by the person who wants it and discussed between all of us PCs until we all agree that it would not be overpowered.

The other side of that particular upgrade is that Breeders would have the choice of giving one of their leader pokemon a second hold item instead. I came up with this when Geminex and I were exchanging PMs over the usual subject, y'know, plotting Renny's murder, and I thought "hey, why isn't there an upgrade for this?". The Breeder could choose to give their other leader pokemon (the one that didn't get the first upgrade) a second hold item slot for the second upgrade.

And for Breeder level 5, I decided to give them a second custom move in exchange for the 3rd Ability Shift.

Pokebrid (Level 1)

- Can use any and all moves of the chosen Pokemon form.
- Can use Paradigm Shift (transform into that Pokemon). Costs 20 RP and lasts until the end of the turn it is used. Can only be used three times per battle. Type weaknesses no longer apply while Paradigm Shifted and Pokemon statistics are added to inherent statistics for a stat boost during those turns.

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Pokebrid (Level 5)

- Pokeform types have status and statistic defenses depending on the type they are. A Poison type Pokemon is immune to Poison and Bad Poison status effects, for example. The best way to know what does what is to look at the special defenses of Slayer armor.
- 1st custom hold item availability.

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Deva (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated is increased by 1.5 times.
- 2nd custom hold item availability.

-----
Deva (Level 4)

- Paradigm Shift can now be used five times.
- Devas become immune to the types of moves that their current form is.

Basically, Menarker's suggestion for Paradigm Shifts. Except for that one where the Deva would get an extra action. I took that one away from Overblades, too.

Discuss.

Pokemon Tuner (Level 1)

- Base Rage generated goes from 5 to 7.
- Tuners can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for one of their leader pokemon.

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Pokemon Tuner (Level 3)

- Can create a new custom hold item.
- Snagballs can now inflict Instant Death now.
- Tuners can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for their second leader pokemon.

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Pokemon Tuner (Level 5)

- Base Rage generated goes from 7 to 10.
- Snagballs can now inflict Apathy and Exhaustion.
- Tuners can choose a second ability or a second slot for a hold item for one of their pokemon.

Basically the same deal that Breeders got, except for the last upgrade Tuners can choose a second ability or a second hold item for any of their pokemon, because I kinda feel they got shafted when it came to upgrades.



Oh, and AB, about Trainer Actions... I dunno, did you actually intend for Trainers to have access to more than one Trainer Action? Because I kinda got that impression. Then one turn we could choose to, I dunno, give small buff to our pokemon and the other turn we could use a regular old Trainer Attack. Then the next we could buff one of our pokemon's attack.

Of course, you probably just wanted to limit it to one. It makes sense that way too.

[Menarker]

Well, I'm happy enough with the proposed changes to Breeder. Except, does the ability or item limit have to apply only to my Leaders? Because I was hoping that I could use Ability Shift on my Swampert or my Shaymin... Unless you want my Mollesk to have yet another ability or be able to hold yet another item. >_> I'd doubt you'd want that.

I think Pokebrid could still use the extra items, similar to that of a Slayer at level 1.

Basically, instead of Double Attack I'm proposing Overblades get to use Sweep on any two targets. I worry, however, that this is too much of a nerf, since Double Attack would mean getting Rage from the extra attack, and Sweep produces no Rage. Also, Double Attack means the Overblade could attack the same target twice.

So maybe we can do something like, I dunno, reduce the Rage cost for Sweep and Focus in one of the Overblade upgrades?

First of all, they don't have focus. Breeders have that.

Second of all, the class is pretty rage hungry, with accessories costing 50 to reuse, hence why I thought to leave it in...

Hey, maybe reduce the cost of reusing accessories to like 25 or so? That way those wanting to use the double attack accessory can still do so (at a reduced cost) and that gets rid of the "gaining rage" factor from the second attack. It could also boost the other accessories in the process, leading to a bit more customization, based on which accessories people like.

Although reducing the cost of Sweep would be a nice addition too indeed.

And you guys plottin' my murder makes me sad. *Tear*

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

Well, I'm happy enough with the proposed changes to Breeder. Except, does the ability or item limit have to apply only to my Leaders? Because I was hoping that I could use Ability Shift on my Swampert or my Shaymin... Unless you want my Mollesk to have yet another ability or be able to hold yet another item. >_> I'd doubt you'd want that.

That was one thing I wasn't sure about.

On the one hand, limiting that kind of upgrade just to leaders seemed prudent. On the other, leader pokemon already get six moves 'n shit.

I dunno, I'll wait for Geminex to give his opinion.

Originally Posted by Menarker

I think Pokebrid could still use the extra items, similar to that of a Slayer at level 1.

Oh, right. I meant to add that but I forgot.

Originally Posted by Menarker

First of all, they don't have focus. Breeders have that.

My bad. I dunno, for some reason I thought Slayers had some equivalent to focus. I forgot that they don't actually have multi-target attacks.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Second of all, the class is pretty rage hungry, with accessories costing 50 to reuse, hence why I thought to leave it in...

Hey, maybe reduce the cost of reusing accessories to like 25 or so? That way those wanting to use the double attack accessory can still do so (at a reduced cost) and that gets rid of the "gaining rage" factor from the second attack. It could also boost the other accessories in the process, leading to a bit more customization, based on which accessories people like.

Maybe not 25. I'd say more like 30 or 35.

[Menarker]

It's already a huge nerf as is, going from gaining having a free attack every turn that gains you 15 rage (or 20 if Overblade is maxed) to actually having to have the accessory and spending 25 rage to use it and not being able to use it every turn unless you have rage to burn.

[Dracorion]

Point.

But Double Attack was already pretty overpowered. Making accessories cost 35 Rage might not be that big a leap if Double Attack was already way off the balanced end of the spectrum.

If we do make them cost 25 Rage, I would probably put it as a separate upgrade anywhere from Overblade 1 to 3.