A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

I understand where you are coming from, but it is not the responsibility of the offended to explain and educate. While it is indeed nicer and possibly more productive to calmly explain, at least at first, why someone is being bigoted and how, those offended do not ow this courtesy to anyone offending them.

I am actually going to go ahead and disagree here because if a statement is made out of ignorance of the possibility of somebody being offended by it, it is extremely awful to make what you thought was a wholly innocuous remark and get met by a tidal wave meteor of fuck you.

Repeat offenders don't get this leniency and trolls are trollin' but people who just honestly say something they didn't really mean should always be approached in a calm manner, and if they continue to debate how the shitty thing they did wasn't all that shitty, report the post as baiting and move on. Members should never ever try to regulate what kind of content is being posted here because when that happens it makes storms like this blow up wherein two sides form. It's much smoother and much easier in that situation just to have one of us look at it to 1) put a stop to the shitty posting immediately or 2) inform you that you're crying wolf because hey sometimes people make mistakes.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Nique

You're shifting the blame. Again, intent and ignorance isn't an excuse in the eyes of the law, and it isn't an excuse when you say something awful either.

Like, are we supposed to read your mind? How do we know you don't know what you're saying? It's not fair that we have to somehow decipher when you know what you're talking about and when you don't, and that's insulting to you.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply anything about shifting the blame. I just used ignorance as an example because in that case it's more likely that I will realize what I said is terrible when someone points it out to me, because I just didn't know before. Yes it would still be a terrible thing, and yes I would do my best to take full blame for it being terrible and apologize for my ignorance.

Basically what I'm saying is that I avoid posting in those areas because I don't like being exposed to the insults and aggressive posts that may or may not follow one of my own. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette, where my next post will have the bullet and trigger a post that makes me angry or upset. The exact reason I avoid this is because I know that my post caused that response, and I don't like that feeling of having offended or disappointed or let one of you down (even though I hardly know any of you). Am I missing out on a learning experience, and possibly staying ignorant about things that I would otherwise be enlightened about had I posted? Yes, definitely. But most of the time I don't like making people angry or upset with my posts, so I just avoid posting in those sensitive topics.

[Osterbaum]

Originally Posted by Fenris

I am actually going to go ahead and disagree here because if a statement is made out of ignorance of the possibility of somebody being offended by it, it is extremely awful to make what you thought was a wholly innocuous remark and get met by a tidal wave meteor of fuck you.

It isn't nice to be in that position and it's not nice to respond with insults to anything. What I'm saying is that nobody is obligated to be nice to you when you say bigoted things. Whether being nice or at least calm about it is a more effective way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways or whether this is morally better is something I'm not willing to get into much right now, because it's something that I don't feel I've formed a clear opinion on yet and would like to learn more on before I dwell into it much in a forum discussion.

The point here is that the fact that someone was being insulting or bigoted out of ignorance rather than spite doesn't make it anyone elses responsibility to treat them nice. Just because they didn't mean their insulting bigoted post to be insulting and bigoted does not mean they aren't and does not mean they aren't accountable for what they said.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

It isn't nice to be in that position and it's not nice to respond with insults to anything. What I'm saying is that nobody is obligated to be nice to you when you say bigoted things. Whether being nice or at least calm about it is a more effective way of getting someone to realize the error of their ways or whether this is morally better is something I'm not willing to get to much shortly here, because it's something that requires an extensive discussion of it's own.

The point here is that the fact that someone was being insulting or bigoted out of ignorance rather than spite doesn't make it anyone elses responsibility to treat them nice just because they didn't mean their insulting bigoted post to be insulting and bigoted.

Okay, yeah, but as far as this forum goes, please try to do the calm explanation route instead of the fuck you you intolerant fuck route.

That's what I'm mostly getting at. While you're by no means obligated towards the person doing bigoted things to be nice to them, I think that you're obligated towards the forums as a whole to not be a big 'ol asshole.

Something about fostering a positive environment or some such.

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Basically what I'm saying is that I avoid posting in those areas because I don't like being exposed to the insults and aggressive posts that may or may not follow one of my own. I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette, where my next post will have the bullet and trigger a post that makes me angry or upset. The exact reason I avoid this is because I know that my post caused that response, and I don't like that feeling of having offended or disappointed or let one of you down (even though I hardly know any of you). Am I missing out on a learning experience, and possibly staying ignorant about things that I would otherwise be enlightened about had I posted? Yes, definitely. But most of the time I don't like making people angry or upset with my posts, so I just avoid posting in those sensitive topics.

Fuck that. You have something to say, say it. Don't give a damn what these rubes thing. In trying to make everyone happy you only anger everyone and dissapoint yourself. You shouldn't compromise yourself. Unless you participate, you will never absolve yourself of your ignorance. What you are ignorant of will continue to remain as a part of you. Only through dialouge can ignorance be fought.

But is important to note that everyone values what they say. Unless you are willing to stand up for yourself, you will be swept up.


As someone who has defended Liz many times in the past, I do need to address Liz. For the most part, Liz is on the right side of the argument. I will note that she is antagonistic against the mods, whether Fenris or Shiney are right or wrong I will not address in this post. Also not relevent at the moment. But Liz is right that Draw Muhammed Day is biggoted, that Atlus was being transphobic and that Call of Duty was shit. Liz was wrong when she called people in the Mass Effect thread of being homophobic. Liz has done some dickish things, but calling her an asshole when she is trying to be patient and nice is antagonistic. It is directly provoking her so that she will lose her shit, and so then her arguments can be dismissed. I do like that the mods are stepping forth saying the tonal argument is not ok, because it is bullshit. Liz has looked for bigotry in the wrong places, like with Fenris. But for the most part Liz makes quality posts that should not be ignored.

I have seen too often when someone tries to counter, they get their argument torn to peices and then play the victim, and call Liz an asshole. I could go through and point out when people have been biggoted, but pretty sure I did that the first time you posted biggoted shit. But this is where I need to disagree with Fen. I think it better than the members attempt to handle an offensive situation before the mods come in. The general scenario ends with someone banned or the thread locked and people frustrated they didn't get to voice their opinions. I say let the people vent for a bit. But I am neither a mod nor trying to critic NPF's mods with this.

But we do end up with the problem of understanding the difference between ignorance and malice when it comes to offensive material. I think we can all agree that Daniel Tosh's comments on rape were so far past the line that it didn't know which speck of shit it was. That is clear malice. But I say it is not that hard. Most of us have been around for a while and know when someone is being an idiot and when they are a sack of shit.

And I did get a laugh out of people getting upset at discussions being to hot. If you cannot afford for your opinions to be wrong and your pride hurt, you should probably stay out of discussions. I am not trying to exclude anyone from discussion, but if you come in with the attitude that you are automatically right because of reasons, then you are going to just piss a lot of people off and get insulted because they are not respecting you. But that attitude is completly disrepectful to begin with. You do not come in to do dialouge, you are either trolling or being a dick. And people are going to call out dickery when they see it.

Now to make the thread a little more lighthearted: a cat hugging a kitten:

Perhaps if all of our avatars were changed to adorable animals, there would be less heat in discussions.

[Arcanum]

Don't give a damn what these rubes think.

That's just not the kind of person I am.

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That's just not the kind of person I am.

I am not telling you to rub your dick in everyone's face, e-peen or otherwise. But that you need to stand behind your opinions, even if they might be shitty. A little self confidence ain't going to kill you.

[Ryong]

I do believe this about sums it up the current state of the forums.

[CABAL49]

If I hadn't been in chat when you said what it was, I would have thought you were saying NPF was a pile of feces. Which isn't that far off.

[Nique]

Actually I'd be willing to bet that this is still a pretty good place in terms of internet forums if we're comparing it to other places.

Like the whole 'oh god npf is just blah whateverthingIdon'tlikethisweek' is kinda dumb because we can all very easily make it NOT that.