Big Bang Theory: Worst Thing on TV or Just the Unfunniest Thing on TV? Discuss.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I don't think you get what the 'coded as normal' means. That post isn't saying that the show never laughs at Penny, it's saying that the reasons we're supposed to laugh at Penny are different, on a fundamental level, from the reason we're supposed to laugh at the nerds.

But I relate to Penny as the 'normal' person in the group, I'm hardly going to laugh at her because I'll find the things she does comparable to what I do. So I wouldn't laugh.

Even if that were true, it don't detract from what I said about why we're supposed to laugh at the nerds. We aren't made to feel superior to them. As Bells said about Howard, he's got a lot more sympathetic including getting married and being an astronaut. Getting to see space is pretty cool, so how I'm meant to feel superior to that, I have no idea.

My point was that nothing the post said was actually true of the show. Why is not funny then? I don't know because I do find it funny.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

As someone with a liberal arts degree working on a J.D., I have no fucking idea what sciencey things they get wrong, nor do I have a desire to see the hard sciences represented accurately. I just want something funny, or at the very least something not disgustingly bad.

Like, I have no idea how local government works, but Parks & Rec somehow makes me laugh anyway. I have no idea what working in tech support is like, but I can still watch The I.T. Crowd, etc.

Me neither. I have a English Literature degree and a Masters in Creative Writing. Hell if I know about any of the science they talk about. But if they get it wrong and I laugh and you don't, does it really matter that they didn't follow the facts? Someone laughed so it's a job well done for them.

I don't really watch Parks & Rec or The Office or really any of those new format shows that Bells mentioned, so I guess I like old format sitcoms. The I.T. Crowd is funny though. I tried watching both the British and American versions of The Office but I just didn't find that funny. I'm not sure why but I don't think it's because they got their facts right or wrong or because I related to the characters too much or too little. It just didn't appeal to my tastes.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You guys are horrible people

[Krylo]

Bells, man, chill your tits.

People are just taking the piss on big bang theory here. No one is over reacting, or really thinks you're terrible for enjoying it.

This is the Television version of those 'lawl CC is bad' talks we used to have back in the day. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edit: Except Smarty. Smarty is totally judging you based on whether you like poorly written sitcoms.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Can't say I've watched it a whole lot but I've seen the odd episode here and there. The thing I find odd is that, most of the jokes require you to have an understanding of the context in which they're made. IE, you need to be a major nerd to get the reference. But the show itself is taking the absolute piss out of the nerd stereotype, which is somewhat counter-intuitive.

Like, is it aimed at nerd stereotype viewers, or people who view all nerdy people as that stereotype? Is the entire show an in-joke for nerd culture, or taking the piss out of it? I'm honestly not sure.

And this is before we get into the subject of whether the jokes are actually funny or not, but that's subjective anyway.

It's aimed at people like my parents and siblings, who are not nerds but who know a nerd quite well (in this case, me.) Through their relationship with me, they're familiar with enough of nerd culture to get some of the substance of the jokes. Because they find my nerdy hobbies and interests irritating and difficult to comprehend, they laugh at how ludicrous it's portrayed.

But really, they laugh at characters like Leonard and Howard and Sheldon because their fears regarding my lifestyle are amplified through those characters' exaggerated anti-social, dysfunctional routines. Characters like Howard and Raj could have been normal and successful, but then nerd culture got in the way and ruined them and left them laughingstocks and punching bags. While my parents find this funny, deep down inside part of the humor is that they see this trend happening to me, and they genuinely believe that they'd have an amazing son, if nerd culture hadn't interfered and completely crippled him from handling things like dating or other basic social interactions.

So it does have an audience, just not quite in the way you're thinking.

[Lumenskir]

then we go to the classic internet Blitzkrieg of "worst thing ever made from human kind and those who like it as at the bottom of society" and now we are cycling back to the Reddit style rhetoric of people who can't separate "i don't like it" from "this is bad". It's not the same thing you know? It doesn't make value of other people either...

Bells, I want you to go through this thread and find more than one instance* where anyone has commented on anything other than the quality of the show itself, or where they commented on those who watch the show. Us attacking the show does not mean we are attacking you those who watch the show.

*More than one because you'd probably think me saying my douchebag roommate likes BBT counts as an insult to BBT fans. I assure you, he is a douchebag above and beyond liking BBT.

A new format, more snarky, acidic, sarcastic, ironic, with a different tone of writing and shooting is becoming more common and more popular lately... The Office, Parks and Rec, Community, 30 Rock, Louie and quite a few others i don't recall the name right now... those are forming a new lead pack. If your style of comedy leans towards that, you are more likely to not enjoy the older "will and grace" format. Which is a perfectly fine statement to make... it was just that and nothing more to it.

I'm trying to say that you're conflating tone/content of a show with its format. The two aren't necessarily related, and quality of the show is further independent.

For instance, Seinfeld is clearly snarky/sarcastic but its format is the same as BBT, three-cameras. Raising Hope, Ben & Kate, Cougar Town, etc. are more sincere and slightly broader but their format is single camera.

Now, format and tone do influence quality in setting the parameters of what can be done, but quality is pretty much dependent on things like good writing and acting, and I'm saying that BBT fails spectacularly where quality is concerned.

Really, there are blocks of text on why it's bad but very few of you even took time to mention better shows or shows you prefer or better alternatives in any length beyond a name... that's just a "Shitting on" bandwagon for the sake of shitting on. It really adds no value to the discussion at all...

Again, find some mentions in this thread where BBT's popularity is linked to its quality.

And really, how deep a discussion should we indulge in with other shows when the primary topic is BBT? I've been using them to contrast how they do things BBT does better, but there is a valid discussion in the myriad ways that BBT fails, whether from its indulgences in homophobia, making Asperger syndrome seem like a one way ticket to villainy, etc.

Also, any discussion about how bad BBT is could lead someone to forgo watching it and watching something else that's better, meaning they'd end up enriching their lives and potentially spreading the word about that other program to others, leading to net gains in happiness. Hence, value.

Fuck, they basically salvaged Howard (which was really unlikable) over the last 2 seasons... i'm ok with you not being sympathetic with the characters... Raj and Sheldon and Amy can be annoying as all hell... but "Horrible people being more horrible"? C'mon now...

They temporarily salvaged Howard by tying him to Bernadette, but that was pretty much temporary since they then decided that the boys and girls plots had to be separated as much as possible and then shot him into space to futz around up there. Now I'd say he's basically the same as he always was.

Leonard has his fate permanently tied to his relationship with Penny, and since the only reason they're together is that Penny decided to settle all of his plots are either (1) him worrying about his relationship with Penny, re: if he's good enough for her, or (2) her feeling something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike jealousy when the writers force a female character to express interest in him for some unexplained reason.

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Krylo

Bells, man, chill your tits.

Man, my tits are ice cold!!
...wait.

Leonard has his fate permanently tied to his relationship with Penny, and since the only reason they're together is that Penny decided to settle all of his plots are either (1) him worrying about his relationship with Penny, re: if he's good enough for her, or (2) her feeling something that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike jealousy when the writers force a female character to express interest in him for some unexplained reason.

Well that's just cause Leonard is Ross. Literally, to the bone.

They even had a "We were on a break" stance recently were for a season ending cliffhanger, for a moment, it seemed like they were going to up the ante of the show with a real tense and complex situation, but jumped out before it developed into anything with Raj and Penny.

[Solid Snake]

But before we all get too offended over how The Big Bang Theory treats nerds, it's worth noting it's even more sexist, racist and homophobic than anything else, and given that nerds aren't really oppressed minorities in the sense that homosexuals, women and racial minorities are, that's really far worse.

In fact, perhaps the most awful thing about the way the nerdy guys (minus Sheldon) are treated in TBBT is how their sense of entitlement around prospective love interests is actually portrayed as the most 'normal' thing about them. When Sheldon acts asexually around a 'hot woman' and disregards her appearance in making judgments (whether ill-informed or not) about them, he's strange and foreign and unlikable; when the other guys collectively and half-assedly try to scheme their way into women's pants, it's the one moment where TBBT flips the scripts and asks you to identify with them because now they're behaving like 'normal men'.

There's an episode where the token 'hot girl' shows up and is objectified -- she likes nerds, therefore she'll sleep with them, and here's some sexy poses and whatnot for the male audience's enjoyment -- and the nerdy boys compete against each other for her and it's one of the few times the audience is expected to laugh WITH the boys. Their game of one-uppsmanship is legitimized and Sheldon is portrayed as even worse than the other nerds for refusing to see the value or purpose in everything that's going on.

So, in short: The audience is expected to laugh at the boys' strange hobbies and nerdy interests, but then root for them when they decide to take a stroll down Misogyny Lane, because it's one of the few times where instead of behaving like Nerds, they're behaving like Real Men. Except Sheldon, because Sheldon has no sex drive and HAHA ISN'T ASEXUALITY HYSTERICAL?!?

Then there's the episodes where Raj is concerned that his Indian parents will hate him because they might think he's gay, and how Raj's shyness around women is portrayed as a sign of homosexuality, and how over-the-top offended Raj is when anyone asks if he's gay. It's all played for laughs, with the joke generally being how fucking awful it'd be if Raj were perceived as gay. To be heterosexual is a badge of honor, one of the few 'normal' things Raj can rightfully claim, and therefore to be defended at all costs.

And a lot of what's missed when TBBT is attacked on grounds of its awful treatment of nerd culture is that they don't really treat Penny any better. On occasion she'll represent the "ideal woman" a prototypical Nice Guy like Leonard would fall for in a way that strips her of independent agency. This is dangerous as it propagates the myth among Nice Guys in the nerd community that being a Nice Guy -- and believing that friendship can lead to a justifiable expectation of romantic results -- can in fact achieve the desired result. And it's just plain sexist.

I don't have a particular problem with the idea that a woman outside the nerd community can fall for a nerd. Opposites can attract, after all. It happens. But the way I tend to see it portrayed on TBBT has Penny and Leonard falling in love for all the wrong reasons. He's the friend who's given her a shoulder to cry on in the past, so why shouldn't she eventually give him the sex he desires? His hobbies are difficult for her to comprehend, but he's a Nice Guy, and Nice Guys 'deserve' a bit of loving by virtue of Being Nice. It'd be nice if TBBT instead articulated there was some form of genuine sexual chemistry or desire between the two, but instead TBBT seems to be sending a message to women that they should just settle.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Krylo

Edit: Except Smarty. Smarty is totally judging you based on whether you like poorly written sitcoms.

This method has never failed me in the past.

[Grandmaster_Skweeb]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

This is, quite frankly, the stupidest thing anyone has said in this thread.

In our forum's recent foray into toning down the douchey attacks and being more approachable in discussions what compelled you to drop this shining turd of a comment?

Humor me here 'cause i'm genuinely curious as to why my stance on cutting out the tv middle-man is so outrageously stupid that such a quip has to be made. When I can watch everything i want legitimately without having to wade through stupid commercials and watch everything on my schedule it pretty much means network or cable TV has become redundant and unnecessary and pointless, for me, to pay for.

[Lumenskir]

But I relate to Penny as the 'normal' person in the group, I'm hardly going to laugh at her because I'll find the things she does comparable to what I do. So I wouldn't laugh.

No, you're going to laugh when the seemingly normal character does something outside of what your actual normal is used to.* Then the joke is over and she's back to being the baseline. But, the nerds will always draw laughs when they talk about comic books, or when they discuss science "too much", or when they display the tiniest mote of social awkwardness. Basically, Penny has to go above and beyond your, the viewer's, view of normalcy to engender a laugh, while the nerds are laughed at whenever they differ from Penny. That's what being the baseline means.

*And, to be clear, in the jokes you listed (namely: lol she drinks beer and lol hogties pigs), the joke is either that it's outrageous a girl who looks like Penny would do those things, or (more generously(??)) that anyone who does such things are ridiculous. Not much better.

Even if that were true, it don't detract from what I said about why we're supposed to laugh at the nerds. We aren't made to feel superior to them. As Bells said about Howard, he's got a lot more sympathetic including getting married and being an astronaut. Getting to see space is pretty cool, so how I'm meant to feel superior to that, I have no idea.

Great, one character has done two things well (well, one and a half, since the other astronauts basically shit on him the entire time). It doesn't really change the fact that pretty much everything the nerds do draws laughs, just from them doing it, just because it's nerdy.

Then there's the episodes where Raj is concerned that his Indian parents will hate him because they might think he's gay, and how Raj's shyness around women is portrayed as a sign of homosexuality, and how over-the-top offended Raj is when anyone asks if he's gay. It's all played for laughs, with the joke generally being how fucking awful it'd be if Raj were perceived as gay. To be heterosexual is a badge of honor, one of the few 'normal' things Raj can rightfully claim, and therefore to be defended at all costs.

Two things: (1) Raj isn't 'shy around women', he can't talk to women unless he's "drunk" (Read As: holding something vaguely alcholicish (seriously, he chugged cough syrup for an episode and that counted)).

(2) I, already covered this:

Exhibit 3 - Raj.

Humor me here 'cause i'm genuinely curious as to why my stance on cutting out the tv middle-man is so outrageously stupid that such a quip has to be made. When I can watch everything i want legitimately without having to wade through stupid commercials and watch everything on my schedule it pretty much means network or cable TV has become redundant and unnecessary and pointless, for me, to pay for.

I was responding to the statement that "No TV = Best TV", which I assumed meant not watching any television. If you meant it as cutting the cord or only watching good TV, then I misread and I apologize.