Big Bang Theory: Worst Thing on TV or Just the Unfunniest Thing on TV? Discuss.

[Lumenskir]

Cause removing it would be terrible.

What I'm trying to say is that whether it exists or not in a given episode (hell, a given scene) is entirely arbitrary, the result of an on/off switch the writers can choose to flip or not. It's not a true part of his character (otherwise the writers would stick to consistent rules that make sense), it's just another quick joke they can make on Raj, i.e., if they want the audience to laugh at him they'll put him in a scene with a woman without a beer. If they want him to act normal they'll stick a single beer in his hand and then continue on as normal.

I mean, really, what would be the difference between Raj walking in and saying "I went to a hypnotherapist, I can talk to girls now!" vs. him always having a beer in his hand?

[Solid Snake]

I don't see anything written about Selective Mutism that suggests that alcohol has ever been used as a cure for it.

This was poor wording on my part.
What I mean is, there's nothing about Selective Mutism that suggests that, upon a person with Selective Mutism drinking alcohol, the Mutism will be negated or it will (even temporarily) fade away.
So, I do think it is reasonable for me to have referred to Raj's condition in the show as promoting a message that Alcohol Cures All Problems when alcohol is used for exactly that purpose, and alcohol has no similar effect for actual individuals with Selective Mutism in real life. Alcohol is presented as a cure-all when it really isn't.

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be. That's simply not how Selective Mutism appears to work, at least based on what I'm reading.

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I mean, really, what would be the difference between Raj walking in and saying "I went to a hypnotherapist, I can talk to girls now!" vs. him always having a beer in his hand?

Well you just stumbled on a point many fans of the show are arguing, myself included... they managed to fix Howard's storyline a bit with Marriage, they are moving on with Sheldon, Leonard is only getting fixed in the end of the show obviously... i don't recall Raj ever mentioned going to a therapist, only the experimental drug test... i don't know how the real treatment for his condition is, but i would imagine if it was done poorly or too "fantastical" it could be considered in poor taste. And then, like you said it... take that away from the character and what does he have?

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be. That's simply not how Selective Mutism appears to work, at least based on what I'm reading.

it's a Sitcom not a documentary. It's exagerated to comedic effect. Selective Mutism is linked to Anxiety and Shyness... light Drunkness is known to ease up on those 2 things a bit, they just wrote that in for comedic effect.

Mind you that in the show it's very clear that his issue is psychological, since eating a -rum cake- was enough to allow him to speak with a FBI agent once. And the effects are nearly immediate.

[Lumenskir]

And then, like you said it... take that away from the character and what does he have?

I dunno, finally have him come out and start dating Stuart like they hinted at in the beginning of this season and see where he goes from there....Eer, since I've hated what they've done with all of the major relationships, and their past stance on homosexuality, maybe not that. But hell, do almost anything else, since sticking with the detrimental busted ass status quo that's easily fixable just because it's the status quo is one of the contributors to labeling it as the Worst Thing on TV.

[Bells]

To be totally honest i really don't like how they tease that Raj and Amy are "probably-maybe" bi-curious (or in Amy's case Bisexual) now THAT is a forced joke that pokes at nothing.

Specially since it correlates the fact the least sexually active characters suddenly have feelings for the opposite sex... that does rub me badly.

[Solid Snake]

So, just to clarify.

You accused me of not knowing what the hell I was talking about:

Originally Posted by Bells

Calm down big fella... i did answer it earlier. You simply got it wrong. Plot point, character traits, character descriptions, episode structure.... you show a minimal underlining understanding of the show you are thoroughly commenting stuff on, that isn't there or is simply completely wrong.

I'm not even saying if i agree with you or not, i'm saying you are literally talking about it like someone who saw those "commercial snipts promoting new seasons" a couple of times in a year and made a profound analyses of the show in dept out of just that...

If you really want to form an opinion of this show, do as i suggested, rent a season, give it a look... right now you are all over the place and really really wrong. I promise you, your skin will not burn, your eyes will not bleed, your credit rating will not go down... but right now, be right or wrong, you really have no idea what you're talking about...

…Which, by the way, is an objectively wrong characterization of my degree of knowledge of The Big Bang Theory.

I've probably watched about a dozen episodes in full and snippets of another ten or episodes while my parents and/or siblings controlled the television.

you are literally talking about it like someone who saw those "commercial snipts promoting new seasons" a couple of times in a year and made a profound analyses of the show in dept out of just that...

The misrepresentation of mine that you seized upon was that I typed this sentence:

So he is 'shy' (antisocial) around women, but the reasoning given for said shyness is even worse than simply being shy because it perpetuates the myth that Alcohol Solves All Problems.

Which you disputed because, in your words:

The show never pounces on his shyness, it never makes light or pokes fun of his disorder. he is never anti-social (he is actually the most social of the group), but he has a social disorder played for comedic effect because this is a sitcom about dysfunctional "fish out of water" people ...like pretty much all sitcoms ever. Leonard being the closest thing to the "straight man" role to serve as mirror to the others.

You likewise point out that the show isn’t advocating that “Alcohol Solves All Problems” because there are occasionally negative repercussions to Raj’s reliance on alcohol. That’s okay, though I directly responded to that argument here:

I do think it is reasonable for me to have referred to Raj's condition in the show as promoting a message that Alcohol Cures All Problems when alcohol is used for exactly that purpose, and alcohol has no similar effect for actual individuals with Selective Mutism in real life. Alcohol is presented as a cure-all when it really isn't.

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be.

You didn’t really respond to that yet.

Only, the bottom line is that you’re really assuming that I was attempting to make an argument I wasn’t making at all:

Then there's the episodes where Raj is concerned that his Indian parents will hate him because they might think he's gay, and how Raj's shyness around women is portrayed as a sign of homosexuality, and how over-the-top offended Raj is when anyone asks if he's gay. It's all played for laughs, with the joke generally being how fucking awful it'd be if Raj were perceived as gay.To be heterosexual is a badge of honor, one of the few 'normal' things Raj can rightfully claim, and therefore to be defended at all costs.

You’ve conceded that Raj is in fact ‘shy.’ You’ve either agreed outright or chosen to simply ignore the related commentary I’ve made regarding misogyny and homophobia in other scenes . Yet you still think it’s appropriate to have essentially trolled – yes, trolled me not once but twice previously when responding to my comments. First you gave a glib TLR quip (ironic since you’ve actually typed walls just as long as mine in this thread), then instead of engaging me on the merits on my arguments you said, and I quote:

... but right now, be right or wrong, you really have no idea what you're talking about.

And now you’re debating around in circles regarding Raj’s Selective Mutism. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on the diagnosis of a real disorder, you do so. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on “comedic exaggeration” as justification for RAJ’S MUTISM NOT ACTUALLY RESEMBLING THE ACTUAL DISORDER you do so and brazenly contradict yourself in the process. You can’t rely upon the defense that Raj’s disorder is ‘real’ as a justification of the sitcom’s approach to Raj, then claim that the exaggerations are for comedic effect WHEN YOU SAID:

The show never pounces on his shyness, it never makes light or pokes fun of his disorder.

…Do you see the inherent contradiction here? In your words the show never “pokes fun at his disorder,” but we’ve just established HIS DISORDER IS DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED FOR COMEDIC EFFECT. If the disorder is deliberately exaggerated for comedic effect, then yes, that decision was deliberately made to poke fun at an imaginary version of Selective Mutism which alcohol mysteriously temporarily alleviates so that the audience can laugh when Raj gets drunk to solve his problems, and laugh at Raj when he's sober and incapable of speaking.

Okay, I’m calling it like I see it.

Bells: You are trolling. You are trolling in this topic for the mere sake of being antagonistic. You are creating conflict for the mere sake of enjoying the subsequent conflicts. You’re more interested in antagonizing others than you are in actually advancing substantive arguments in defense of Big Bang Theory. Because there isn’t any substance whatsoever here.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I rest my case.

[Nique]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

Who cares what your housemate likes/doesn't like?

Originally Posted by Professor Smarmiarty

Are you saying the title is a lie? Are you allowed to do that?

Also; How can the pink panther strike again when it isn't even in the movie?!

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

So, just to clarify.

You accused me of not knowing what the hell I was talking about:



…Which, by the way, is an objectively wrong characterization of my degree of knowledge of The Big Bang Theory.




The misrepresentation of mine that you seized upon was that I typed this sentence:



Which you disputed because, in your words:



You likewise point out that the show isn’t advocating that “Alcohol Solves All Problems” because there are occasionally negative repercussions to Raj’s reliance on alcohol. That’s okay, though I directly responded to that argument here:


You didn’t really respond to that yet.

Only, the bottom line is that you’re really assuming that I was attempting to make an argument I wasn’t making at all:



You’ve conceded that Raj is in fact ‘shy.’ You’ve either agreed outright or chosen to simply ignore the related commentary I’ve made regarding misogyny and homophobia in other scenes . Yet you still think it’s appropriate to have essentially trolled – yes, trolled me not once but twice previously when responding to my comments. First you gave a glib TLR quip (ironic since you’ve actually typed walls just as long as mine in this thread), then instead of engaging me on the merits on my arguments you said, and I quote:



And now you’re debating around in circles regarding Raj’s Selective Mutism. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on the diagnosis of a real disorder, you do so. When it’s beneficial for you to rely on “comedic exaggeration” as justification for RAJ’S MUTISM NOT ACTUALLY RESEMBLING THE ACTUAL DISORDER you do so and brazenly contradict yourself in the process. You can’t rely upon the defense that Raj’s disorder is ‘real’ as a justification of the sitcom’s approach to Raj, then claim that the exaggerations are for comedic effect WHEN YOU SAID:



…Do you see the inherent contradiction here? In your words the show never “pokes fun at his disorder,” but we’ve just established HIS DISORDER IS DELIBERATELY EXAGGERATED FOR COMEDIC EFFECT. If the disorder is deliberately exaggerated for comedic effect, then yes, that decision was deliberately made to poke fun at an imaginary version of Selective Mutism which alcohol mysteriously temporarily alleviates so that the audience can laugh when Raj gets drunk to solve his problems, and laugh at Raj when he's sober and incapable of speaking.

Okay, I’m calling it like I see it.

Bells: You are trolling. You are trolling in this topic for the mere sake of being antagonistic. You are creating conflict for the mere sake of enjoying the subsequent conflicts. You’re more interested in antagonizing others than you are in actually advancing substantive arguments in defense of Big Bang Theory. Because there isn’t any substance whatsoever here.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I rest my case.

Objection! I got better marks in law school than you!

Originally Posted by Nique

Also; How can the pink panther strike again when it isn't even in the movie?!

It's mysterious curse does.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

No, you're going to laugh when the seemingly normal character does something outside of what your actual normal is used to.* Then the joke is over and she's back to being the baseline. But, the nerds will always draw laughs when they talk about comic books, or when they discuss science "too much", or when they display the tiniest mote of social awkwardness. Basically, Penny has to go above and beyond your, the viewer's, view of normalcy to engender a laugh, while the nerds are laughed at whenever they differ from Penny. That's what being the baseline means.

Not really. Penny's excessive alcoholism has been a consistent part of her characterisation since her previous break from Leonard. And most of the nerdy humour seems to come from when the characters not knowing what to do and asking other nerds what to do and getting very bad advice. Which is what you'd expect when you ask other socially awkward people how to handle awkward situations. And they might have conversations where they talk about comics or films and apply real life situations to that scenario (for instance, how does Superman wash sweat out of his suit?). That seems like a great length to go for a laugh considering you seem to think that the nerds draw laughs at the slightest geeky thing they do.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

*And, to be clear, in the jokes you listed (namely: lol she drinks beer and lol hogties pigs), the joke is either that it's outrageous a girl who looks like Penny would do those things, or (more generously(??)) that anyone who does such things are ridiculous. Not much better.

Why is it ridiculous that a girl like Penny would do those things? She looks more athleticv than the boys and lots of pretty girls binge drink.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Great, one character has done two things well (well, one and a half, since the other astronauts basically shit on him the entire time).

Yes, but not because he's a nerd. It's because he eats fruit loops and that seems more like a hazing thing.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Two things: (1) Raj isn't 'shy around women', he can't talk to women unless he's "drunk" (Read As: holding something vaguely alcholicish (seriously, he chugged cough syrup for an episode and that counted)).

You say this but you're also aware that Raj has tried other methods such as drugs. And in another episode when he's teaching Sheldon meditation, he states it helped him stay in the same room as a girl. As someone said, it's a kind of selective muteism that's basically being exaggerated for humour.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

and the fact that they have to either force a beer into his hand or explain why something he's imbibing is alcoholic in order for him to act human and contribute to a scene shows that they know it's pointless.

Forcing it into his hand basically involves him holding a beer in his hand. They're usually eating anyway, so how is this really forced? But just to say alcohol does not allow him to act human. He becomes a jerk. The joke is that he can either not talk or be a jerk. Especially when they put him in situations where he has to talk to a woman, like a job interview or sexual harassment meeting. Yes, again, it's an exaggeration, but so are most characterisations in sitcoms.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

The point I was making was about others' perceptions of Raj as being 'shy' drove an underlying homophobic message. Key words: Others' perceptions. It isn't about whatever disorder Raj actually has, not really anyway. It's about how society's perception of Raj as shy leads others to believe he might be homosexual, and how Raj responds to those claims about his sexuality.

But Raj isn't a homosexual. In fact he says himself that he's probably metrosexual (maybe that isn't one of the 12 episodes that you've seen.) So he would probably get annoyed if people kept thinking that he was just because he likes some unmanly activities. That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he's be deeply troubled. But it's a sitcom so we laugh at his frustration.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Except pretty much any time Penny is in the same room as Raj, they do the same joke where Raj leans in to Howard to have him tell Howard to tell Penny something, and the audience laughs. When Raj took that pill that let him talk to women for an episode, the laughter came when the pill started to fall apart and he was back to being mute again.

Yes but they usually laugh at what Howard says in response because Raj has said something that Howard can't ask or say in company. You've missed the actual joke there. And it has been used to further a scene, such as when Howard blamed Raj for something knowing he couldn't defend himself and when Raj whispered in his ear he totally lied. I found that funny.

And the laughter came when the side effects caused involuntary movements of his hand. It was still being tested anyway, for which Raj signed up for, so it was a solution that could be persistent anyway.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

The fact that Raj suffers occasional consequences for his reliance upon alcohol to speak to women does not refute the fact that alcohol is necessary for him to speak in the first place, when it shouldn't be. That's simply not how Selective Mutism appears to work, at least based on what I'm reading.

Does it really matter? This goes back to the rule of funny that was mentioned earlier in regards to ignoring science for the sake of a joke. Do they really need to be so strict in their comedy that they can't have alcohol inhibit his securities long enough for him to over come his mutism. This is not a documentary or a drama, it's a sitcom. If it's funnier to ignore the piece of information, then ignore it.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

But Raj isn't a homosexual. In fact he says himself that he's probably metrosexual (maybe that isn't one of the 12 episodes that you've seen.) So he would probably get annoyed if people kept thinking that he was just because he likes some unmanly activities. That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he's be deeply troubled. But it's a sitcom so we laugh at his frustration.

"That would be frustrating and if this was a drama he'd be deeply troubled."
But that's my entire point!!!

It's wrong plain and simple that our society views homosexuality as so abhorrent that for others to believe we may be homosexual is 'deeply troubling.'

Look, I know Raj isn't homosexual. It really shouldn't matter, but that's not the point of my argument. It's how Raj and others in his social network view the 'accusation' of homosexuality that's so offensive from a social justice perspective.

Ideally we'd live in a society where we didn't give a shit if someone misidentified our sexuality. Period. End of story. What this show does is it turns heterosexuality into a badge of 'normalcy' and 'honor' that Raj is only too desperate to cling to.

Does it really matter? This goes back to the rule of funny that was mentioned earlier in regards to ignoring science for the sake of a joke. Do they really need to be so strict in their comedy that they can't have alcohol inhibit his securities long enough for him to over come his mutism. This is not a documentary or a drama, it's a sitcom. If it's funnier to ignore the piece of information, then ignore it.

First: It's ableist. It's the same kind of shit that upsets so many people when it comes to Sheldon's potential representation of individuals with Asperger's. Exaggerating a disorder into the punching bag for a series of jokes -- so that the misconstrued disability itself is the butt of the joke -- is something that should be avoided. When this happens, Raj is stripped of humanity and simply becomes that guy whose Selective Mutism makes him unable to function. Hell, the fact that it happens solely, exclusively and consistently whenever a woman is simply present -- and the fact that alcohol always temporarily 'cures' the condition -- these are misrepresentations of what Selective Mutism actually is, done so that we can laugh at the idea that someone would have such an affliction.

Second: Bells can't simultaneously claim the 'real disorder' as a defense of Raj's representation of a 'dysfunctional' individual and suggest that "the show never pounces on his shyness...never makes light or pokes fun" at said serious disorder, then claim comedic license for the show's producers to exaggerate that disorder because doing so would be 'funny'. His positions are contradictory.