If you live in the United States, you should be disgusted with your country

[Nikose Tyris]

Originally Posted by batgirl

Sorry to have disappointed you. Again, we're all entitled to our opinion. I knew that my stance on this would not be the popular one, but I felt I'd put it out there regardless to try and provoke some meaningful debate.

Okay sure why not

Originally Posted by batgirl

FACT: Mike Brown was a criminal. There are varying reports about whether he had a criminal record, as he just turned 18, but just prior to his death he committed a criminal act. He committed a strong armed robbery (a felony) for some cigars, roughing up a store owner.

Point A: Darren Wilson was 100% unaware of this. He recieved no notification of this fact, and that's because:

Point B: The store owner himself has stated that it didn't happen. Someone else saw a scary black man in a store and got scared.

So first point gone- Let's change your statement to one that's accurate:

Originally Posted by Truth

Mike Brown was an 18 year old high school grad with real college plans.

Originally Posted by batgirl

FACT: Mike Brown and his accomplice were walking in the middle of the road, impeding traffic flow.

Point A: Darren slowed his car alongside them to tell them to get off the road, drove off ahead, turned around (Leaving skid marks on the street that are visible in photographs) to return to them to provoke a fight when Brown did not listen.

Originally Posted by Truth

Michael Brown was not walking on the sidewalk and did not immediately obey a white officer, with a history of criminal assault and racist attacks.

Originally Posted by batgirl

FACT: When approached by Officer Wilson and asked to move out of the street, Mike Brown lunged at Officer Wilson in his own car and went for his gun.

Point A: This is the farthest thing from the truth that could have happened and Fox News has even recanted this. Brown did not heed the officer and moved further away from the vehicle, but all evidence shows he was moving AWAY from the officer, and there was no lunge.

Originally Posted by batgirl

This fact was confirmed via the autopsy which showed powder burns on Brown's thumb.

Darren Wilson stood over the already dead Michael Brown and shot him at point blank range repeatedly. That is roughly 3-4 feet of distance for a man standing at arms length from a prone body and firing, more than sufficient for the powder transfer.

Note also that the claims of firing his weapon at close range for the head and torso injuries, there are no powder transfers there, indicating substantial distance.

Also note that Darren Wilson repeatedly lied about his injuries and the extent, and that he lacks anything worse than a sunburn from that day.

Originally Posted by Truth

Based on Eyewitness accounts, Darren Wilson on his turn around opened the door of his vehicle and struck Michael Brown with it, who sprinted away from him in response. Upon receiving bullet wounds to his back and side, he turned around with arms raised, and as he was kneeling received more bullet wounds to the top of his head and upper torso.

While laying unresponsive on the ground, Darren Wilson fired four more rounds into the body at close range.

So if you really wanted to come in here with an attempt to discuss the truth of what happened, let's try this:

Originally Posted by Truth

White Cop murdered a Black Adult for not listening to him. But it's easier to believe a Racist White Cop's ever-changing story, and the police station defending him, then every bit of medical and forensic evidence provided, because I'm not black enough to worry about it.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Nikose Tyris

Point B: The store owner himself has stated that it didn't happen. Someone else saw a scary black man in a store and got scared.

...Seriously?
I was under the assumption that everyone had conceded the robbery took place (and the camera footage at least arguably makes a case for battery / assault, assuming that was actually Brown), if that isn't true than I'm really out of the loop.

(Though I think the broader point should be that it doesn't really matter if Brown did or did not commit a crime prior to being murdered. I don't want the takeaway to be that it would/could have been OK if Brown was a criminal, as that kind of execution is incredibly disproportionate use of force, and that's true even if Brown 'violently' resisted arrest, for that matter.)

[Nikose Tyris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP8Of6gbZaM

http://www.stltoday.com/online/pdf-a...a4bcf6878.html

http://online.wsj.com/articles/polic...ing-1408108371

http://www.firearmsid.com/a_distancegsr.htm

@Snake: Nothing was stolen. He pushed the clerk who spoke to him when he entered in the photograph. You can see on the security camera photos him enter the store, physically accost someone, and leave. The owner who was accosted stated explicitly that he did not get robbed and he did not report it to the police.

And you're right- it SHOULDN'T matter. If cops bring in White Mass Murderers unharmed, I'm pretty sure jaywalking isn't a death sentence.

[Solid Snake]

Earlier in the day, a surveillance camera captured Brown and Johnson allegedly stealing a pack of cigars from a convenience store. Video of the event was not released until a week later, but Wilson would go on to cite the robbery in his grand jury testimony.

...If Wilson didn't know about the alleged robbery how the hell would it even be relevant as grand jury testimony?!?

@Snake: Nothing was stolen. He pushed the clerk who spoke to him when he entered in the photograph. You can see on the security camera photos him enter the store, physically accost someone, and leave.

If that's true, Brown still technically committed a crime, but that kind of assault is so low on the scale compared to robbery that it makes an already-disproportionate response by police to shoot a firearm at him even more disproportionate.
It seems Ferguson Police are still contending Brown stole shit, but again, not even relevant if the Cop had no clue.

[Nikose Tyris]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...If Wilson didn't know about the alleged robbery how the hell would it even be relevant as grand jury testimony?!?

He was informed after the fact, and it was used as part of the general smear campaign. They've also tried to arrest his mother on blatantly false and trumped up charges.

[batgirl]

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/...ocs/index.html

I've said my piece about what I think and I'm honestly not going to argue and argue since I know I'm in the minority here (and have probably changed a few of your opinions of me, and that's fine). I am going to post this link though, which links to the transcripts of the grand jury testimony, witness interviews and other miscellaneous documents for everyone to peruse and form their own opinions from.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by batgirl

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/...ocs/index.html

I've said my piece about what I think and I'm honestly not going to argue and argue since I know I'm in the minority here (and have probably changed a few of your opinions of me, and that's fine).

...I don't get it.

When someone who disagreed with you responded to your well-articulated points from a perspective of emotional agitation your retort was:

Sorry to have disappointed you. Again, we're all entitled to our opinion. I knew that my stance on this would not be the popular one, but I felt I'd put it out there regardless to try and provoke some meaningful debate.

...Which implies that you're upset that you couldn't participate in meaningful debate.

So now the meaningful debate over the actual facts of the case is happening, and instead of engaging with us and explaining your perspective, you're going to turn tail and run?


It's like you're interested in the theoretical possibility of well-reasoned, well-intentioned debate so long as that possibility remains theoretical and so long as you can win points by casting yourself as unfairly maligned by an opposing side that refuses the decency of debating you on the facts. But the minute that debate actually happens and we want to engage you on the substance, suddenly that was never your intention at all?

...Honestly that really aggravates me for some inexplicable reason, like, you either seriously wanted to have a real discussion or you just wanted an excuse to berate Kim.

[shiney]

I read an interesting article about this where they stated, in as many words, that a prosecutor could obtain an indictment for a ham sandwich if they were so inclined. The unique process used in the Brown case is that the prosecutor introduced a trial's worth of evidence, both circumstantial and hearsay apparently, when addressing the grand jury. Apparently including such disproven things as the altercation at the store which Wilson could not have known about.

I mean, it was clearly a shit show from the very beginning. Like I get where batgirl is coming from in her thoughts and opinions, but the situation is a lot darker than that. This wasn't a case of a good man making a mistake; he pursued Brown because of the heinous crime of walking in the street, and then maybe there was some kind of physical incident between them where Brown apparently got shot, but even if that never happened Brown got shot again, and again, from a distance of at least 15 feet while his back was apparently turned.

Like I don't see how that didn't result in charges because at that point the cop's life was not in danger. The kid was 15 feet away and I sincerely doubt he was charging at Wilson especially if they had already been in a fight of some kind. Kid gets shot and he's going to charge at the guy with the gun?

On another note, I doubt that the rioters and looters were actually from Ferguson. I suspect more that they came in from outside because they had an opportunity to cause damage and steal shit by taking advantage of a known national story that already had the potential to go bad.

[Nikose Tyris]

The HealSTL office and Michael Brown Sr. (Victim's Father)'s church were both burned to the ground.

Like, sure, random fires that's gonna happen, but burning a church in the south? That's nobody from Ferguson. and a hallmark of the KKK.

[shiney]

Oh here's something fun.

Addictinginfo.org is hardly a thoroughly reputable source, but they do get some breaking news right. If this is true it would be ground for a mistrial on part of the grand jury (or whatever the legal equivalent is, Snake could you enlighten?)

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/11...aising-wilson/