Nice guys finish last?

[squall2933]

1st rant
2nd rant
Your thoughts?

[shiney]

Keep calm about your woes. If you think women don't want nice guys, you are hanging around the wrong women. How old are you two? Women past the age of about 18 don't tend to act like this. And yes, they do complain a lot about their respective partners when they are upset, but so do men. I bet there's a lot of girls out there who see a nice guy with a not so nice girl and think 'Man, she treats him like shit, why can't he see that I love him so?'

This is almost kind of a sexist attitude that guys with low self-esteem tend to take rather than own up to their own insecurities and inhibitions. If you are confident and outgoing, womenw ill like you. If you are a shy little snivelly mama's boy, there's still a girl or two who would like you, but not as many. The key isn't that nice guys finish last, it's that confident guys get there first. Plenty of them are actually nice, too. You just only hear the bad parts because being a friend means someone to talk to when there are problems.

To be honest, wouldn't you get just as annoyed if they were always gushing about how much they love their boyfriends? How awesome he is, cool, etc, and to hear nothing bad? Think about it.

[Krylo]

Oh yah. Those are some nice guys alright. Man, let me tell you. Those are the nicest guys I've ever had the pleasure of reading a rant from.

Here's a few gems:

Originally Posted by Rant1

Girls are idiots.

So charming. Such a wonderful sentiment. It reeks of understanding and sensitivity. The author is obviously such a nice guy.

Originally Posted by Rant1

But the nice guy isn’t THAT naïve. He was trying to score with the girl he listens to all along.

And, of course, pretending to be someone's friend so that you can get into their pants is the PINNACLE of sensitivity. It's not in the least bit sleazy. And, it's such a wonderful thought to completely disregard the fact that you have a friend that trusts and cares for you, even if they just happen to be a woman. Because relating every relationship you have with someone with breasts to whether or not they'll sleep with you makes you such a 'nice guy'.

Originally Posted by Rant2

that endure hours of whining and bitching about what assholes guys are

Yes, yes. Accusing friends who are mistreated by their significant others of whining and bitching and claiming that you have to 'endure' it, is such a wonderful sign of a nice guy. He's obviously interested in her mind and her personality when he feels that he has to 'endure' conversations with her.

Originally Posted by Rant2

his is for that time she interrupted the best killing spree you’d ever orchestrated in GTA3 to rant about a rumor that romantically linked her and the guy she thinks is the most repulsive person in the world. And even though you thought it was immature and you had nothing against the guy, you paused the game for two hours and helped her concoct a counter-rumor to spread around the floor.

And, of course, helping her demonize another guy that you have nothing against, just so she'll like you more. Yip. Nice. I can feel the warm fuzzlies all over.

Originally Posted by Rant2

his is also for that time she didn’t have a date, so after numerous vows that there was nothing “serious” between the two of you, she dragged you to a party where you knew nobody, the beer was awful, and she flirted shamelessly with you, justifying each fit of reckless teasing by announcing to everyone: “oh, but we’re just friends!” And even though you were invited purely as a symbolic warm body for her ego, you went anyways. Because you’re nice like that.

Because you're a chump like that. No one is that 'nice'. Anyone who puts up with this either doesn't want in her pants, or is too goddamn pathetic to EVER get there... and is only there to try getting her ass. Which is, again, so very very sensitive and wonderful, and... you know what, I'm getting tired of sarcasm. This guy's a fucking prick, worse than all those assholes. At least they're out in the open about what manipulative pieces of shit they are. He's trying it from behind her back, playing at friendship just to get a piece. He doesn't deserve even that much.

Originally Posted by Rant2

The nice guys don’t often get credit where credit is due. And perhaps more disturbing, the nice guys don’t seem to get laid as often as they should.

Yip. Because sex is the only thing that's important in a relationship between two people of the opposite gender. Asswipe.

Originally Posted by Rant2

the only conclusion I can form is that many girls are just illogical, manipulative bitches.

And there's nothing manipulative at all about pretending to be someone's friend when you obviously don't REALLY give a rat's ass about anything besides her, oh so wonderful, measurements, right? Because calling women who are supposedly your friends manipulative bitches is such a nice thing to do, right? Because the author, and anyone who buys this tripe OBVIOUSLY deserves these women, right?

And DaBigg,

So for all those women out there that have already been used and abused, I will be a friend, nothing more. I do not need something that has already been wasted.

That's obviously the pinnacle of nice-guy-ness, right there. Not to mention the rest of that paragraph.

Here's an idea: If you're such a nice guy, try being honest. Don't pretend to be her friend if you want to be her boyfriend. Don't pretend to be interested in what she says when you think she's a stupid manipulative bitch. Don't pretend like you're the person for her when you're no better than the asshole she's with.

Yes, there is some psychological background to the 'nice-guy' syndrome. There is some actual evidence of women wanting to 'mother' and 'change' bad boys into something else.

But there's also the fact that well over half, I'd even say well over 3/4ths, of the 'nice guys' are complete assholes themselves. They just like to tell themselves that because they let themselves get walked all over to get into someone's pants that they're somehow better than the guy who's more or less honest about wanting that, and just about only that. They like to pretend that because they believe they know what's better for a woman better than that woman does, that they're a nice-guy, even though they find her insipid and only talk to her because they have intentions on her panties.

Frankly, the whole thing sickens me.

[squall2933]

Although the two authors did say some things that were not very nice, I feel they made some good points.

First of all, I'd like to point out that in no way, shape, or form, am I being friends with any of my female friends to concoct some strange plan to get into their pants in the distant future.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like to say that I've been madly in love with this girl, Kristine, since I was the supple young age of 15. We had started dating about a year and a half ago, with two break-ups and two reconciliations during that time. About a month ago, Kristine and I broke up again.

Now, I'm 18. Nearly 19. I'm still very much in love with Kristine, and this last month has been one of the hardest times of my life. I really have no reason for getting up in the morning anymore.

For some background on Kristine and I, I've always treated her as if she were a princess. And I'm sure if you asked her, she'd say the same thing. Maybe that wasn't the best thing to do in my situation but it's they way I treated my relationship with her.

So I'm sure you're wondering why we broke up. Well there were a few reasons, but the main one boils down to the fact that she wants to be able to go off to college and date around and do all the things that a stereotypical college girl does. That and the fact that she misses the time where we were really good friends and not lovers. She says that she still loves me very much but she doesn't want us to be together.

So how does this apply? Well, Kristine and I have been through a lot. We'd been sexually active throughout most of our relationship, but through times where she had doubts about sex, I stuck with her. I supported her and I held her and I told her that I loved her no matter what choices she made. Sure, it bothered me that she wanted to stop having sex. I'm not going to deny that. But I was willing to make that sacrifice for her. Throughout all the fights we've had, throughout all the problems we've faced, I stuck with her, and I still could now if she'd have me. But she won't. And I feel that makes me at least partially a nice guy. Sure, I might be a bit of an asshole for being bothered that she wanted to stop having sex, but A.) I feel that it was mostly because of physical withdrawal and sexual frustration, and B.) I never let it get between us.

I understand that you're hearing it only from my side and I'm biased towards making myself seem like a better guy than I probably really am, but in all reality, I think it is harder for a nice guy to find a girl. Maybe it IS because he's too shy to go find a girl, but for the few years before Kristine and I started dating, I was that guy that stood beside her and listened to her no matter what was going on. I wanted to be with her, but I realized that she didn't want to be with me so if I couldn't be more than friends with her, I was happy with being her friend. As for now, I understand that she doesn't want to be with me, and I can accept that. Sure, it's difficult seeing the woman I love every day and knowing that my love is wasted, that my love is unwanted, but if I can't be the person she feels she wants to be with for the rest of her life, I still want to be her big brother and help her in whatever way I can.

So where does this all tie in? Personally, I think that there's something in a female's psyche that wants to change a guy. I don't think it's stupid, I don't think they're stupid, I think it's the same as a guy being physically driven to want sex. We can't help it, neither can they. But I think women have a deep-down mental or emotional need to feel that they're good enough of a person to turn "the asshole" into the "man of their dreams". Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just one self-proclaimed "nice guy"'s opinion.

Krylo, I understand your frustration with guys who say they're nice guys and really aren't, but please don't take it out on other forum members. I'm referring specifically to your last post in regards to DaBiggMan. Although he's not perfect and he has some things that he feels a woman should be doesn't mean that he's an asshole or less of a person. I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean that I think he's not a "nice guy." Not all "nice guys" are the same. Some are nice in different ways.

As far as what you said, Shiney, I feel that I'm a pretty outgoing guy, and you're right, I generally have no problems finding a few girls that like me or are at least half-way interested in me. However, it's getting the ones that you really like/love to stay that tends to be the problem. A friend of mine explained his theory about it once. "If you're always nice to a girl and give her whatever she wants, she'll take it for granted; if you give her a little of what she wants but leave her wanting more, she'll keep coming back to you and cherish every last thing you do for her." Ironically enough, this was my friend's philosophy on Kristine before she and I ever dated. And it worked. They broke up several times, always on his account, and she always wanted him back. Now Kristine's broken up with me several times, and I've always wanted her back, and still do. Although I don't think his philosophy is the most humane, or "nicest" thing to do, I think there's a little merit in what he says. And I don't even think it's specifically for girls, I think it applies to guys as well.

In all reality, Shiney, I don't believe I have the "nice guy complex". I think right now I'm just going through a tough time in my life, and I'll get over it when I find someone that I feel I can be with and be happy with. I just feel like complaining, and I felt this was the best way to do it. Maybe I just hope that I'll be as lucky as you. I feel that your story, as it is, with RaiRai is one of the sweetest (corny word, but I couldn't think of anything better) things I've heard in a long time. I guess I'm just jealous of your "picture-perfect" romance.

Anyway, this post is running a little long, and for some reason I have the feeling that I'm going to get flamed for something I said in here, so I'm going to call it quits now.

Anyway, keep discussing, it's interesting to see what people have to say about this.
~TJ

[Krylo]

Hey, I tell you what Kyrlo, when you have spent the last 7 years being ditched by girls for an asshole, then they come back to tell you of how much an asshole they were so they can have a shoulder to cry on, then you come back and whine to me.

Well, let's see... I'm 22 now... I've always had more friends that are women than friends that are men... me and my friends started dating at around 13... so that means I've been listening to it from one woman or another for 9 years. I've only actually had a girl break up with me specifically to go to a 'lesser' guy once. And you know, now that I've matured for all those years, I realize that I wasn't all that much better than Todd was.

The main difference is that I don't see it as a huge struggle to hear all that. If a friend is going to cry on my shoulder because her boyfriend's an asshole, I'm not going to complain about it. If an ex-girlfriend who became a friend wants to cry on my shoulder, I'm still not going to complain about it. Same as I wouldn't complain if a guy cried at me over a girlfriend (unless it was drunken crying. Drunken crying annoys me.) I didn't even see it as a pain when Jen complained to me about Todd doing something stupid, after breaking up with me, because I and her remained friends. And listening to each other is what friends do.

And I wasn't whining. What I was doing was pointing out the INCREDIBLE hypocrisy in complaining that nice guys don't get laid.

Where's the hypocrisy, you may ask?

If you're such a nice guy why do you care enough about getting laid to write a huge ass rant in which you demonize women over and over again, and cuss, and talk, specifically, about sex on multiple occassions?

If you're such a nice guy why aren't you happy just being friends with these women?

Nice guys don't complain about listening to women bitch about their boyfriends. Nice guys don't complain about not getting laid. The only people who do that are the ones who act nice because they want a piece of ass.

And, also, DaBigg, I may have misunderstood that paragraph as that it came in conjunction with you agreeing, more or less with both rants and the words used. That agreeance, however, still doesn't sit right with me.

I have no problem with your beliefs about chastity. I have a problem with the tone that 'wasted' conveys. But, we aren't professional writers editing and re-editing everything we say to get our connotations and our ideas perfectly worded, so it's entirely possible I took you out of syntax. It's also entirely possible that some of whatever frustration you're feeling is seeping into your post.

So, I apologize if I misunderstood your attitude toward women who have been 'used and abused'. However, I stand by my demonization of the rants, and that no one who ever wants to have a meaningful relationship with a woman as either a friend or significant other should ever think of it as more than bitching from a bitter 25 year old virgin.

Also: Squall, if you're telling the truth, you're not the kind of guy who writes that tripe, and you aren't the kind of guy who should agree with it.

I could, at this point, air a bunch of my emotional baggage and note that you certainly aren't alone, but instead I'll just note that you aren't the only person who was ever left by a woman... and ever considering the words of frustrated, alleged nice-guys, as anything RESEMBLING the truth over that is harmful to everyone involved. Except for the alleged nice-guys... because misery loves company.

[squall2933]

Krylo, like I stated in my post, I don't necessarily agree with the rants, but they did make a few good points. Also, as I said, I don't feel that girls are leaving me for assholes, or that I don't find girls because I'm a "nice guy", but I'm just going through a slump and I wanted to know what others thought of what I feel and what the two authors feel.

I have a friend, John, who always tells me "I'll never find a girl who'll love me" and "Jenna (his girlfriend for a while) didn't love me because she didn't have sex with me. I wasn't good enough for her, because she didn't want to fuck me." Although those are assholish things to say, he's not an asshole. I always tell him to keep his chin up and keep looking, but he doesn't believe me. This was the main reason for this thread. I also try defending Jenna, telling him that she did love him but she didn't want to have sex until she was sure that she really wanted to, but he just won't buy it. I'm exhausted. I can't help my friend and it frustrates me. He just won't listen to me.

[Staizer]

Heh, you should ask your friend John if he thinks you like him as a friend, because you don't have sex with him, but obviously you are friends.

That right there is the reason I don't "really" want sex until I find the right girl, part of me wants to get laid every night, I admit it, but really I know the damage it causes to have that be the only reason to go into a relationship. It hurts both people, unless they are absolutely sure that their lives are going to be together forever, or if they are so in control of themselves that they can give up that relationship when it ends.

Squall, I ask this in all honesty because I have been in a very similar situation and am just getting myself out of it. If hanging out with your ex hurts you that badly why are you still hanging out with her? People come and go in our lives, and it doesn't make you a bad person to make that decision. If she doesn't need you in the way you want her to need you, then you really have two options: 1. Change how you want her to need you to how she really does need you, 2. find someone who really does need you the way you want them to need you. Or both.

I've been broken up with my ex for the past three years now, and we still hung out most of the time, that ate me up inside because even though we were good friends and she knew me almost to my very soul, she still didn't want me. Then this last march I was in group therapy for depression and was discussing my relationship with her when one of the group leaders asked me that question. "Why are you still hanging out with her if she causes that much pain in your life?" My answer was "Because I love her, and if you want something bad enough it will happen." Crap, bunch of crap. So I decided that I needed to end all contact except for birthdays and holidays, for my own sanity.

There comes a point where we "nice guys" just can't give anymore and we have to focus on ourselves, I needed to figure out what was going on, and the best way to do that was to end all connections with her.

Find someone else, there are plenty of fish in the sea and there certainly isn't a "Perfect One." I'm still learning, and I am right there with you dude, just keep trying and eventually you'll find one that fits you well enough. Just remember to communicate, too many opportunities are lost when we assume that others know what we are thinking (this means believe what the other people are saying as well, if your girlfriend says she loves you, believe it).

edit] I currently have the problem of thinking that two women who know me better in the entire world than anyone else don't want me because there is something wrong with me, and that none of the girls I am interested in want to get to know me, but then, you know what, if a girl doesn't want to get to know me, she is shallow and I wouldn't want to get to know her anyway. I can care about her life, I can be sad when something goes wrong in it, but I don't have to commit my heart to a person who won't commit theirs to me. The women that know me the best on the other hand is a harder thing to think about.

The first is my ex, and the second is a friend that I've been hanging out with for the past 2 years, neither of them want to date me, but then, thinking about that as well, that's their problem, I want to date them, so its not like I have any issues with their personality, if they don't want to date me because of who I am then that's their choice, and if its just because they aren't ready, that is their choice as well. All I can do is be there and ready if they change their mind, or if I am already with someone else, then that is their loss for being too late.

I am not being egotistical or anything. I am merely stating that borders have to be set in order for my own personality to survive.

I feel like I'm not stating any of this clearly, so if it doesn't make sense please feel free to let me know and maybe I can clarify it, its hard to cram something like a year's worth of re-creating how I view the world into one post.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Whee! More debate!

There will almost never be subjects more disputed than these; the miscommunications between men and women, although it seems like some communications between men and their peers can come close.

Originally Posted by Dave Chappelle

I've heard it said time and time again that chivalry is dead. And it's true! It's true! Chivalry IS dead... and women killed it.

Part of the frustrations that men experience when they encounter a woman they are in love/lust with are due to the fact that men and women, for the most part, do not operate on the same mechanisms. Men go by what they see and deduce, meaning that if A (The right guy) + B (The girl/guy/object of your dreams) = C (Unending utopian bliss), then C must obviously only be obtainable by combining B with A (which by fault of overbloated ego, MUST be the one contemplating said "logic"). Now I'm not insinuating that nice guys have such egoes, but it's not an unknown anomaly. I myself experienced this recently when I was dealing with Steffanie, an ex-manager of mine at my old job. Steffanie was everything I could have asked for in a woman, certainly more than I would ever believe I deserved. She was intelligent, well-built, incredibly beautiful, sensitive, funny, fun to be with, fun to talk to... none of her conversations ever bothered me, just because I wanted to be around her. And she was short. 5'0". I don't know about the rest of you, but I LOVE short girls... it's a fetish, I'll admit it.

Anyhow, Steffanie was with a guy, we'll call him "Moron," for sake of brevity. Moron was a convicted felon (check fraud), a deadbeat (she supported him and his habits for three years), had all the personality of a turnip, and looks to match. What she ever saw in him, I will never know. Eventually, Moron moved to a little place called Colville and got himself a job, finally. The moment he was able to support himself, he found a convenient skank to bang. Who was a friend of hers... and she had to find out on their 4-year anniversary. They told her it was more than likely to happen again. And she actually considered staying with him!

Now, I can see what happened... and I hated to tell her the truth, because I knew it would hurt. He basically used her as a crutch until he could go on his own. She likes to cuddle and kiss more than just putting out, whereas, he isn't having fun unless he's jabbing his genetals into something. Thus, when it was no longer necessary or convenient, he moved on. What had me confused was that she still held hope for him until it became obvious that he was beyond salvage.

This, my friends, is a perfect illustration of why women will stay with the "losers, schmucks, assholes, and dumbasses," rather than go with you, the self-proclaimed man of her dreams. It isn't necessarily any flaw you possess, but women operate on how they feel, rather than what they see. I could see that moron was a complete asshole and an ingrate, a user, where Steff could only remember those fleeting romantic moments where somehow he made her feel like the only woman in the world. And believe me, sometimes, that can outweigh IMMENSE measures of grief and frustration... it will make women do things that have men scratching their heads. Crazy? To most men, yeah. To women, maybe not. I had a lot of feelings for Steff, many of which I never dared to express because I never wanted to lose the friend she'd become to me. It might be cowardice on my part, but I've always felt that Discretion was the better part of Valor... and I'd rather have her as my friend, to help pick up the broken pieces of her life and help her to mend, than to only be there if she wants to be with me. I wouldn't mind if she did, but I already have that desire... anything beyond that is ultimately her choice to make.

It's frustrating, it's aggravating. It makes you want to ram your head into a wall. It drives you mad at times... there have been a few girls out there whom I would have given everything for, if only I could have made them my wife, had my children with them, and done my best to give them a life they could never have dreamt of. One especially comes to mind, whom I will never name. And believe me, I sympathise with all of you who are frustrated with these kind of problems, but there is more to life than finding a mate. I'm so glad I realized that, finally. My sister has three children... beautiful children... that I would give my life for in a moment's notice without hesitation. They are my precious ones, my beloved people, and they are my reason to live. What I want is important to me... but I've found that by making those three children happy, I've become so much more fulfilled and pleased with myself than chasing after the elusive "one" has ever made me. Think of what is truly important in your lives... you'll find there are some things even romance cannot buy.

For everything else, there's Mastercard.

Edit: Sorry if I ramble and it makes no sense. I'm half asleep.

[shiney]

It shouldn't be generalized. It's so easy to say "Women will stay with such and such" but in reality, it's a very small amount of women who are like that. It's not anyone's place to judge them either, because a guy will often stay with someone who they think is cheating on them, has cheated on them, is a gambling addict/drug user/whatever too. It boils down to emotional insecurity and familiarity in a lot of cases. There's also the threat factor which a lot of people don't actually say. "He said if I leave him he'll kill me". Etc etc etc.

Most of these rants across the net are from people who think they know better but generally have no right to interfere. Usually they don't know the person even remotely as well as they thought they did, else this sort of situation wouldn't be so confusing to them. It doesn't matter if a person has known girl x for 20 years since they were a baby, if they can't figure out why that girl would stay with that guy, they don't know anything about the girl. And so, they have no right to 'rescue' her.

Personally, I'm just waiting for Mashirosen's input. :3

[Rhyos]

I've seen quite a few sides of quite a few fences. I've known the "he'll kill me if I leave, but I have to because he abuses me" type. Very scary. I've stayed for about a year with someone who cheated on me 4 times. Also very scary. I've been rejected, dejected, laughed at, spit upon, ridiculed, and now I'm in an excellent, wonderful relationship with the Lady who has been at my side the whole time.

Nice guys may finish last, but they finish best. Keep that in mind.


<_< And on another note, why do more guys hit on me than Ladies? :thief: