Nice guys finish last?

[Illuminatus]

Yay! Sharing time!

I have to say, this is about the dozenth time I've seen a post bemoaning the cruelty of the fairer sex, and maybe the third time I've seen those exact rants.

I'm going to be honest. I just skimmed the thread, and I skimmed the rants, but I've read them before and I know what they say. So here's my story.

I'm a pretty darn nice guy. I've never been in a fight, and I never get angry. People usually like me, unless they're just looking for someone to hate. Sometimes I get walked on, because I dont know how to say no, but I don't feel like it's a particularly big deal most of the time.

I also have this bizarre thing where I always have crushes on my female friends. I've probably had a crush on at least one of my friends at any given time between now and when I started liking girls.

Until this year, I was all, "Boo hoo, girls don't like nice guys, blah blah blah," But let me tell you a couple things.

1. In college, theres a lot less of those girls. Girls start dating guys who aren't assholes much more often, and guys stop being assholes much more often. Works out for everybody

2. Bemoaning your situation gets you nowhere. I spent countless hours feeling sorry for myself, but it didn't do jack for my situation.

Eventually my situation improved itself, and I had two girlfriends and a little fling this year. All of them managed to hurt me quite badly because of how nice I am. I treated those girls like godesses, tried to do as much as I could to please them, and they hurt me for it.

Here's the thing though. First, especially in a relationship, you can't try too hard to please the other person. Feel free to make demands for yourself. If the other person doesn't want to give in to your reasonable demands, then they're probably not interested in you.

Second, you've got to pick yourself up again. Give yourself a little bit to feel sorry for yourself, then get back on the horse. Learn from your mistakes.

And finally, for all you never-hads out there, I want to make a promise to you. It will get better. Girls will become accessible to you, and may even seek you out. Just be patient.

There you go. My 2 cents.

[LordBalmung18]

Wow..You are so...insanely jaded. Its not even funny. Its not wrong for a guy to be nice to want to get into a girls pants and im offended that you think so. This guy didnt put it very well so ill try to correct it. Nice guys like us(the real ones anyway)View sex as just another step in becoming close to someone. If i really cared about someone i would do all those things he mentioned and endure all he named. I have before and i will again. I didnt do it because i wanted to get laid. Its understood that if i managed to take the relatshionship beyond friends with someone that sex would come along at some point. But its neither a goal nor really an important part of the process. Yeah im still a virgin. Laugh if you want. Sex really isnt that all consuming me for. Im seeking someone i can be close to. Someone i can share everything in my miserable little life with and face the challenges together. All that romantic stuff. Sorry if im a little blunt but yeah..the years wear thin and im a little jaded from trying too hard. And as long as im being blunt..Ouch shiney. That shit stung man. Im aware im too shy. I cant do anything about it. Im born like this(aspbergers disease)And you forgot to mention..the kind of girls that like outgoing guys? Arent really our type. Partiers and all that lack the abilty for deep relatshionships. Sorry for the rant im just on a kick tonight.

Edited by Mashirosen because there is no freakin' need to quote an entire super-long post when you're not responding to it point-by-point. LordBalmung, I see you're new here, so please try lurking here and seeing how we do things before you make any more posts like this, okay?

[Steel Shadow]

Huh. I agree with almost everything you just said LordBalmung18. A little bit iffy on one or two points, but yeah, I agree. And I have asbergers syndrome (Small world, huh?). It's true, it really does screw up your self confidence. But it can be overcome. At least a bit. Just tell yourself to be confident, and whenever your not to sure about whether you should do something, ask yourself: What's the worst that can happen?
Granted, it's not a cure all, but it can really help.

[CelesJessa]

Originally Posted by LordBalmung18

Im aware im too shy. I cant do anything about it. Im born like this(aspbergers disease)

Never say that you can't do anything about something because you were born that way. When you look at it like that, it's not that you can't do anything, it's that you won't do anything. Sure it may be harder for you, but it's not impossible. (sorry, don't mean to go off on this, but it's a major pet peeve of mine)

And you forgot to mention..the kind of girls that like outgoing guys? Arent really our type. Partiers and all that lack the abilty for deep relatshionships.

Aren't you just looking at the extremes? If you are outgoing, it doesn't mean that you are immediately a partier and such. Outgoing can be something as small as willing to talk to someone new. And when you're outgoing, it does make it a lot easier to like someone because it's really hard to like someone you know nothing about (aka, really shy guys, since they wouldn't talk to someone out of their comfort zone very easily) Outgoing is something as small as saying hello to someone you don't normally talk to and bringing up conversation.

And it's the same for girls too! Shy girls may have crushes on the shy guys, but if both of them are too shy to talk to each other, nothing is going to happen! I have a good friend who is the most adorable girl in the world, she loves games and anime and she is the best artist (she's had her art put on display at the art muesuem quite a few times, something I haven't even done) but she is ultra shy as far as it come to guys, and she has never had a relationship either. But the big thing is, she doesn't whine about not having a relationship either.

The end of my two cents.

[Dante]

[Soapbox]

Lord Balmung, I take offense with your impression that partying girls are incapable of deep relationships. Just because they act excessively friendly and intimate (to you) with many men at once is in no way indicative of their way of having a relationship. Consider that this may be their way of expressing friendship and affection to their friends. Hell, I know someone who's just like that with all the guys she knows, but she's too scared to get attached because of the rumors all the quiet, so-called "nice guys" spread about "her and her sluttish ways". And for your information, those girls who like outgoing guys like them because they make the effort to reach out to them rather than waiting for the woman to make the first move. There's a chinese saying that goes "watching the stump to catch a rabbit". It's certainly possible that one day, a rabbit will ram its head into the stump you're watching and get you free bunnyburgers, but it is not to be relied on.

Incidentally - it is irrelevant what you are born with. I know someone with one eye who draws as well (if not better) than most people with two. One of the most boorish and uncouth (he's also a surprisingly tender guy for someone who looks like him) people I know regularly takes girls home with him after he goes clubbing. I'm the original lazy bastard and even I manage to force myself to run every day to keep in shape. It doesn't matter what's wrong with you as long as you make the effort. Shiney and Rai didn't let distance stop them, and now they're married.

If you think I'm just talking out of my arse and I have no idea how bad your situation is, you're right - I don't. And frankly, I don't care. Even a legless man who struggle to pull himself along is better off than an able-bodied man who lets himself fall and refuses to get up.

[/Soapbox]

[Steel Shadow]

Ok, you seem to have the wrong impression here. Asbergers syndrome (And I'm assuming aspbergers disease, becuase they sound the same. Appologies if I'm wrong, but that's a moot point now) is a mental disability. Don't go saying these things make no difference, becuse my father works in a home dedicated to housing and looking after them. I'm not saying that AS, or infact most MDs, are as bad as that, but it still comes under the same clasification. It doesn't stop you from having a normal life, it just makes you see things differently. And you have no idea what it's like growing up with a MD unless you've done it yourself. You're forever told you can't do the same things as other people becuse your "special", but your still expected to do what everyone else does. Being "special" is used as an excuse for every single little thing you do differently, wether accidental, intentional, or individualy. Your a loner? Must be becuase your sepcial. You can't add 36 and 8 together? Special. You can add 36 and 8 then times it by 14 and a 1/2 in .3 of a second? Special. Gifted. Child prododgy. etc, etc. Some of these sound like good things, but if you hear them again and again, it just becomes harder and harder to keep it up.
And then theirs the negative side of it. It makes you very... different from the person sitting next to you. That can be overcome by just trying. But that's only one end of the stick. It makes the person sitting next to you very different from you. People begin treating you differently. At least they do when they're old enough to understand that you are different. They start "looking after you", and "watching out for you". They ask if your alright at every opertunity. And it's very, very wrong. Some cases may need it, but when you do it to everyone who's "special", that's generating a steriotype of a group, and that's wrong. It's like racisim. or sexism. I forget what it's called, but it probably has a name. People should be judged individualy, not thrown in with the rest. I never felt AS was a disability, I would have fought to say it was a privilage, but my parents were constantly going on at me, each other, and my school to make exceptions for me. As were the teachers. People went out of their way to make sure I was treated as the "special" person I was. And I never, ever, ever ever ever ever needed it.

whoops. Slightly different from our sheduald topic. We now return you to your regualr brodcast:

So yeah, AS, or any MDs make a differnce, and they can make it imposible for you to have a relasionship. That was can. Can is a very different word from will. It will only if you let it!!!. Only if YOU decide to listen to all the people who have told you again and again that you are "special". Screw them, what do they know? If you really try, you can do pretty much anything. You may not have any confidence, but you can get it. I'm not going to suggest you think positive, becuase that doesn't help any. Just do it. Do it, I dare you. Dooo itttt. Do it! I know, I don't know what it is I'm telling you to do, but it doesn't matter. If you want to do something, you think you should do something, you need to do something, but your scared, or you think you shouldn't, or you might not know everything you need to know, Just go ahhead and Damn well do it! No matter how small, or big, doing something you didn't have the self confidence to do will always give you what you need. Go ride a roller coaster, sluaghter your way through an undead infested graveyard (What? I scare easy.). In a game. Definatly in a game. No more of this. Do the right thing, do what needs to be done, do what you thing needs doing. If your really confident, ask a girl out!
Eventualy it'll all be ok, things happen, and then more things happen. Things also happen in between. They happen afterwards, and before hand to. And as far as you know, you're the only one who sees these things, becuase who else can you prove exists?
Damn it, I did it again. What I'm saying here is that time passes and things change. you'll be a different person at some time, so try to make it a better one.



Oh, before I forget:

Steel, my question is simple, Why? Why would you do things for people that obviously, or so your paragraph states, don't respect you? Why would you want to end up with a woman who will treat you just like all these so-called friends have treated you?

I was going to say that's becuase its who I am, but then I actualy started thinking about it. Why do I do that for people who actualy treat me like that? It makes no sense, and it normaly get a few funny looks from them at the same time. These aren't my friends, Btw, they're just people I'm around for one reason or another. My friends do respect me, at least.
So why do I continue to be a nice guy to people who clearly wont return the favor? The smart part of me want to say it's becuase I don't do it for a reward, and that's true, but it's not the reason. I honestly don't know the reason. Is it becuase I hope that one day they will like me? nope. Is it to stop them complaining that I didn't do nice things for them? Could be, but probably not. Is it becuase I want something back someday? No, and that makes no sense. Why would they? Is it becuase I want to be remembered as a nice person? Ah, there we go. It's not the entire reason, but I think it'll do for this. And I really can't think of anything else that comes close, so it'll have to.

Once again, I have ranted on for a long time. Maybe it's the first time on this forum, but I'm known for it elsewhere. And given time, perhapse I will be known for it here also.
Sorry, I'm just very tired, and when I get tired, I start typing stupid things. So to save you the bother of another ton of crap, I end this now. Goodnight, nuklear people!

[Drax_reborn]

Well i am a nice guy and not a 'Nice Guy'. I want to help all my friends men and women, it just happens that mainly the women talk to me about their relationships. Now I don't expect a reward for listening to a friend, but it makes me angry when they say the whole "you will make someone very happy one day" and "you deserve to meet a nice girl", it's very patronising. And I know that I have low opinion about myself and no amount of self loathing will change what I look like, I know that.

But confidence does not come in little jars, all you need to get confidence is to ask someone out and not get rejected within three seconds of asking, this is the case with both sexes, not just men. If someone gives the low confident person a boost, even a little one which is not patronising, then they can build up confidence.

Sorry if it sounds a little ranty and bitter, but that's how the world has left me and before you start I am not after pity, I have had my fill of pity.

[Staizer]

Steel, I read your post and chuckled, compare these two statements:

It doesn't matter what's wrong with you as long as you make the effort

So yeah, AS, or any MDs make a differnce, and they can make it imposible for you to have a relasionship. That was can. Can is a very different word from will. It will only if you let it!!!

They say the same thing, we agree with you, even if it did sound rude.

I am glad that you know why you are being nice to people, remember that reason everytime you want to beat yourself up for being taken advantage of. I know I have to. The road we walk is full of pain, but that is because we chose to walk this road. Pain doesn't have to be bad as long as we learn from it and use it to better understand what caused it and how to effectively prevent it the next time.

That seems to be the biggest problem. People turn into vindictive, vengeful people when they aren't treated nicely, instead of thinking out the scenario and understanding that the people who are mean aren't the norm. The bad things in life are the minority. For every person that dies of cancer thousands life, for every murder millions are still going about their day, for every jerk who is antisocial hundreds are empathic to others' needs.

[Steel Shadow]

Originally Posted by Staizer

They say the same thing, we agree with you, even if it did sound rude.

You know, your the second person to point that out to me. Gimme a sec, let me see if I can find... aha!

I know that I ended up agreeing with you. I just wanted to make the point that it CAN make it imposible for some people, but as I feel I've overcome alot of the crap I got left with, so I belive it is possible as long as you don't give up. Of course, I don't have a severe case of AS.

Blah blah blah....

In conclusion: It can be changed, you can do something about it, but it takes will power and knowledge of what to do, and not everyone has those.

That should explain it. Oh, and:

I am glad that you know why you are being nice to people, remember that reason everytime you want to beat yourself up for being taken advantage of. I know I have to. The road we walk is full of pain, but that is because we chose to walk this road. Pain doesn't have to be bad as long as we learn from it and use it to better understand what caused it and how to effectively prevent it the next time.

That is one of the best statments I've ever heard on the subject. If it wasn't so big, I'd put it in my sig. Oh well, another time, or something.

[PCD]

Okay, I feel the need for my two cents here. Since a lot of my views have already been posted, I may end up vague at some points, and I may not be the best person for it, but I honestly think there are too many Nice Guys who are posting. How about a Nice Girl with a severe hormone imbalance? There's some variety.

I don't think nice guys finish last. 'Nice Guys?' Yeah, probably. But nice guys really do come in the lead. They just start out in last place. With patience, I think you'll find the asses in first will lose speed and you'll zip straight past. The jerks, asses, fucksticks, whatever you want to call them, don't live happily ever after. Many end up with miserable lives, while the nice guy gets a happy family. High School may be unbearable and seemingly endless, but it'll get better if you keep at it.

This, of course, referring to guys who mean it. It hasn’t been mentioned here that you don't have to be a 'Nice Guy' to get discouraged. Many genuinely kind people get discouraged when the interest runs off after the mysterious brooder, or the tattooed biker. But guys who help these girls vent with just the panties in mind aren't much better--a wolf in sheep's clothing, in a way. Sort of.

Now, consider these girls in and of themselves. Three questions for knowing of you really want this girl: Is she really just gorgeous and kind of nice? Does she really know anything about you? Do your interests mesh? If the answers are along the lines of: yes, no, and no in that order, then she's not for you, right?

Though I suppose that doesn't make it right for her to be with this guy. But you can't do anything about it. Real Life Example(not personal, but real nonetheless):
A friend and her alcoholic fiancé, getting married waaay too early in life. She's whining often about how much he drinks, and how awful he acts when drunk. All it takes: "Are you SURE you want to marry this guy?" She never speaks with you again. It's just something you can't help. People leave people when they're ready (However, If there's abuse and threats involved, then that's an ENTIRELY different matter). It's similar for a friend with a drug problem or drinking problem: you can monitor them worriedly or supportively, or just forget about them and move on, but if you try to say that you're worried about them and they should quit, they're going to think you're an ass.

And as for meeting your own person? I don't need to add anything to what's been said. Confidence is all it takes, man.

Okay, this is feeling repetitive and I’m going to pass out on the keyboard soon, so I’m done.