What constitutes an anti-hero these days?

BitVyper · 09-20-2006, 12:43 PM

I've been doing some reading on the subject lately, and it seems like the modern definition of "anti-hero" can be stretched to include anyone from Shinji Ikari to Superman. Of course, if the term can mean anything, it means nothing, so that doesn't work.

Most characters being written today have at least some human flaws, and tend to operate by their own moral compass. I actually had someone point out Son Goku as an anti-hero to me for this reason (to be fair, if one looks at his actions in a certain light, Goku can be taken as a very selfish individual).

Generally, it seems like the rebel-type characters are taken as anti-heroes today, but that takes away more traditional anti-heroes, like Shinji, Macbeth, and Hamlet. Besides that, those rebel characters are becoming so common that they're practically the norm, with Captain Americas and Supermen being less common. Should those characters with strong morals, great courage, and powerful conviction then be considered the anti-heroes? That doesn't really seem right either.

Anyway, my question is just this: What should constitute an anti-hero now? Is the term even useful anymore, now that we are exposed to a much greater variety of characters than when it was originally used? Am I just deconstructing language that doesn't need to be deconstructed?

Azisien · 09-20-2006, 03:57 PM

These aren't terms I deal with so forgive me if I misunderstand the definition...

The anti-hero doesn't have the villain tag, otherwise they would be villains, right? But they seem to be popular because they're all badass and such, usually.

My favorite example of an anti-hero recently is Takeshi Kovacs in the Altered Carbon trilogy by Richard Morgan. Basically, he wasn't a complete sadist, and he did do heroic things ultimately for the greater good. But he was also selfish and often brutally immoral. It's what I consider an ideal anti-hero. They might mean well in some areas but their execution is often...not your iconic "hero."

I try to differentiate that from, say, an all out VILLAIN working on the side of the heroes due to circumstance.

**Satan's Onion** · 09-20-2006, 07:31 PM

I've heard Commander Vimes (from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels) referred to as an anti-hero; but I dunno. He's not exactly a rebel, 'cos he's in a position of authority; but he's not simply the right hand of traditional authority either, 'cos he does what he damn well sees fit, to anyone whom he thinks needs something done to them. At this point, Azisien's definition dounds pretty good to me.

Zalgon 26 McGee · 09-20-2006, 08:15 PM

Commander Vimes delivers truth and justice with fist, club and, where necessary, stabbing implements.

Westerns (and, yes, historical tales from China and Japan) pretty much invented the anti-hero... the wandering bad-ass who improves the lives of some people around him usually as incidental to ending the lives of bad people around him. In this manner, even Jim Profit could be considered an anti-hero.

These days, it's usually someone who, for various reasons, performs actions and deeds that would be deemed heroic, but does it for unheroic, selfish, or entirely indifferent reasons. See: Riddick.

Also, a list! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al_anti-heroes

Demetrius · 09-20-2006, 11:36 PM

Hari Michaelson or Caine from Heroes Die, dunno if any of you NPFers are familiar with the book.

Aerozord · 09-21-2006, 01:06 AM

to me anti-hero was more of an alternate type of protagonist.

A hero is a person who fights for justice and protects the innocent. Defeating the bad guy

anti-hero fights for reason X and doesn't really care about innocent as much as killing the bad guy.

You can also take it based on priority. Heros care more about protecting the good, while anti-heros care more about beating the bad guy

Mesden · 09-21-2006, 01:10 AM

Wooo, fangirlism.

Take Scar from FMA. (Be prepared for biased results!) In the light of who he is, he's actively trying to attack the Protaganist for a larger cause. In reality he is really a vigilante, so to say, enacting what he thinks is right, something that generally conflicts with the main Protaganist's cause. He's a hero in his own right, but to the whole of the story he's a counter protaganist.

Counter Protaganist. I like that.

Edit: It applies to the manga too! So...I'm still on track >.>.

gurusloth · 09-21-2006, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demetrius

Hari Michaelson or Caine from Heroes Die, dunno if any of you NPFers are familiar with the book.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with that one. Great book, BTW. The sequel, Blade of Tyshalle, was good too.

Igbutton · 09-25-2006, 06:10 AM

I agree with AeroZord, heroic deeds for selfish reasons make an anti-hero. I think Guts from Berserk is a good example.

09-20-2006, 12:43 PM	#1
BitVyper History's Strongest Dilettante Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Arcadia Posts: 6,662	What constitutes an anti-hero these days? I've been doing some reading on the subject lately, and it seems like the modern definition of "anti-hero" can be stretched to include anyone from Shinji Ikari to Superman. Of course, if the term can mean anything, it means nothing, so that doesn't work. Most characters being written today have at least some human flaws, and tend to operate by their own moral compass. I actually had someone point out Son Goku as an anti-hero to me for this reason (to be fair, if one looks at his actions in a certain light, Goku can be taken as a very selfish individual). Generally, it seems like the rebel-type characters are taken as anti-heroes today, but that takes away more traditional anti-heroes, like Shinji, Macbeth, and Hamlet. Besides that, those rebel characters are becoming so common that they're practically the norm, with Captain Americas and Supermen being less common. Should those characters with strong morals, great courage, and powerful conviction then be considered the anti-heroes? That doesn't really seem right either. Anyway, my question is just this: What should constitute an anti-hero now? Is the term even useful anymore, now that we are exposed to a much greater variety of characters than when it was originally used? Am I just deconstructing language that doesn't need to be deconstructed? __________________ "There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea is asleep, and the rivers dream. People made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace; we've got work to do!" Awesome art be here.

09-20-2006, 07:31 PM	#3
Satan's Onion Swing You Sinners! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: 4th Street Posts: 2,666	I've heard Commander Vimes (from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels) referred to as an anti-hero; but I dunno. He's not exactly a rebel, 'cos he's in a position of authority; but he's not simply the right hand of traditional authority either, 'cos he does what he damn well sees fit, to anyone whom he thinks needs something done to them. At this point, Azisien's definition dounds pretty good to me. __________________ Good evening, ladies. Please enter and be tained .

09-20-2006, 08:15 PM	#4
Zalgon 26 McGee Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 8	Commander Vimes delivers truth and justice with fist, club and, where necessary, stabbing implements. Westerns (and, yes, historical tales from China and Japan) pretty much invented the anti-hero... the wandering bad-ass who improves the lives of some people around him usually as incidental to ending the lives of bad people around him. In this manner, even Jim Profit could be considered an anti-hero. These days, it's usually someone who, for various reasons, performs actions and deeds that would be deemed heroic, but does it for unheroic, selfish, or entirely indifferent reasons. See: Riddick. Also, a list! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...al_anti-heroes Last edited by Zalgon 26 McGee; 09-20-2006 at 08:18 PM.

09-20-2006, 11:36 PM	#5
Demetrius In need of a vacation Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Peoples Republic of Vermont Posts: 3,236	Hari Michaelson or Caine from Heroes Die, dunno if any of you NPFers are familiar with the book. __________________ DFM, Demon seed of Hell who fuels its incredible power by butchering little girls and feeding on their innocence. Demetrius, Dark clown of the netherworld, a being of incalculable debauchery and a soulless, faceless evil as old as time itself. Zilla, The chick. ~DFM Wii bishie bishie kawaii baka! ~ Fifthfiend

09-21-2006, 01:06 AM	#6
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	to me anti-hero was more of an alternate type of protagonist. A hero is a person who fights for justice and protects the innocent. Defeating the bad guy anti-hero fights for reason X and doesn't really care about innocent as much as killing the bad guy. You can also take it based on priority. Heros care more about protecting the good, while anti-heros care more about beating the bad guy __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

09-20-2006, 03:57 PM	#2
Azisien wat Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 7,177	These aren't terms I deal with so forgive me if I misunderstand the definition... The anti-hero doesn't have the villain tag, otherwise they would be villains, right? But they seem to be popular because they're all badass and such, usually. My favorite example of an anti-hero recently is Takeshi Kovacs in the Altered Carbon trilogy by Richard Morgan. Basically, he wasn't a complete sadist, and he did do heroic things ultimately for the greater good. But he was also selfish and often brutally immoral. It's what I consider an ideal anti-hero. They might mean well in some areas but their execution is often...not your iconic "hero." I try to differentiate that from, say, an all out VILLAIN working on the side of the heroes due to circumstance.

09-21-2006, 01:10 AM	#7
Mesden There is no Toph, only Melon Lord! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inside of a box inside of a smaller box Posts: 4,310	Wooo, fangirlism. Take Scar from FMA. (Be prepared for biased results!) In the light of who he is, he's actively trying to attack the Protaganist for a larger cause. In reality he is really a vigilante, so to say, enacting what he thinks is right, something that generally conflicts with the main Protaganist's cause. He's a hero in his own right, but to the whole of the story he's a counter protaganist. Counter Protaganist. I like that. Edit: It applies to the manga too! So...I'm still on track >.>. __________________ I can tell you're lying. Last edited by Mesden; 09-21-2006 at 01:24 AM.

09-25-2006, 06:10 AM	#9
Igbutton Troopa Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 82	I agree with AeroZord, heroic deeds for selfish reasons make an anti-hero. I think Guts from Berserk is a good example.