eBay banning Death Metal.

[Captain Hat]

Originally Posted by Bravefencer Shinryuu

Um, I would say the vast majority of classical music was written for small ensembles, the type that can fit into a room for a party. And I would like to see some of the bands reach the sheer complexity that is reached by Romantic era pianists and musicians. There is your complexity.

Even so, the margins between the best ensmbles and the best modern music are so narrow as to defy comparison, especially when the difference in style is taken into accout.

Honestly, a lot of people have an inflated opinion of classical music. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love it- You can't go wrong with a bit of Barber or Handel- but there was just as much dross then as there is now. The difference is, we've had a hundred years and more to weed out the dross, so that only the classical music which was actually any good has lasted. In a century's time, songs like "Aenima" and "Vicarious" will be remembered as classics: Songs like "Last Resort" and "Rollin'," on the other hand, are unlikely to be remembered at all.

And yeah, while we can argue for as long as we like about the rights and wrongs of the situation, at the end of the day eBay is free to disallow the sale on its site of whatever items it wants to. Whether that means black metal albums or toy rabbits, they don't legally need to justify their decisions to anyone.

[EDIT]And fifthfeind- Glad to hear it. I don't wish to sidetrack this thread any further, so shall we let this be the end of the discussion?

[Subdivisons]

What the fuck? This is outrageous! Retarded. Surely, most of it (burzum especially) is racially fueled hatred music, but it's just music...I love Burzum and still don't hate jews. There are alot of more terrible things out there that could to fought against, and some dumbass christian fucks need to keep their mouths shut.

There, this is the only post I'll ever make.

[Jimmy_Jazz]

Well I listen to a *little* bit of black metal and as far as i can tell banning stuff like Burzum (the guy behind that band was convicted for murder and burning down christian churches) and Zyklon B (taking their name from the chemical that was used to gas Jewish persons in WWII concentration camps) is pretty well justified. Even being a modest fan of black metal I refuse to listen to such music on account of their views and hence would support Ebay's decision to ban thier sale. I think there's a big difference between the general misanthropy expressed by a large quantity of death and black metal bands and those who express genuine hatered towards minority groups.

But the real question is how do they know where to draw the line? For example: they've banned Satyricon's latest album there, which I personally did not find to be particularly offensive, while I'm sure there's pleanty of more offensive stuff still being sold that they dont know about. I think unless they can establish strict guidelines on what is and isn't allowed, and police these guidelines, then they shouldn't go banning stuff at all.

[Baily]

Captain Hat : When you focus too much on the technicality of music and less on the aesthetic parts of songwriting, it's kinda sad. Someone can play the shit out of a guitar, but that doesn't mean they're ARTISTS. What makes something artistic is the symbolism and the interpretations open to the listener and the intended interpretations by the artist. When I hear heavy bands in general all I hear is cacophone and someone distoring their own voice so much you can't understand a word they say.

Look at the Pixies. They play music that actually requires you to take the music and analyze it and actually THINK. There's no crypticism any more everyone usually shoves the meaning of their music down your throat. there is no thought, just heart on the sleeve, "Listen to what I have to say!" bullcrap.

Sidetrack over. Sorry, I stepped in a little late and figured I'd get my opinion in. Now, about eBay...

Want to know something really special about deat/black metal or whatever? You can go to almost any music store, actually interact with a human being and order what music you want. What a concept, right?

[notasfatasmike]

I'm not really a big fan of Black Metal, but I know that the dudes from Mayhem weren't/aren't racists. Sure, they were extreme nihilists. Yes, they took pictures of their bass player's suicide and put them in the album art for their next album. But they certainly weren't racists.

Sarcasm aside, this is really pretty lame. Unless the bands have proven and established ties to the Nazi Black Metal movement, their records shouldn't be banned.

[Monstructor]

Originally Posted by dposse

http://roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/...wsitemID=58406



I understand the eBay has this thing against racist stuff, but metal is metal. Why don't they censor just about everything in Rap since it says the N word every five seconds? How far does eBays policy go?

It would be racist to ban rap, because it's black music. And the numero uno law of political correctness is that men, white people, Christians and white males are always expendable when put up against women, minorities, minority religions and anyone who's not a straight white male. So, surprise surprise, they ban the rock but not the rap.

[Roy_D_Mylote]

There uh, aren't a lot of Christian metal bands. I mean, there are a few, yeah, like that one my dad played in (yeah, it's embarrasing) and that one my friend was in for like a week.

I don't think it's a race thing.

[Lockeownzj00]

Monstructor: your posts don't even dignify reputations, so instead I offer you this--

Oops, you're racist! In denial, at that. From here on out, I will mentally replace all the words of your posts with the sound of a cow chewing grass--or perhaps the phonetic representation of that. The process will look something like this:

Originally Posted by Monstructor

Man, white people sure get the shaft!

becomes

Originally Posted by Monstructor

munch, munch munch munch, munch munch munch.

[Captain Hat]

Originally Posted by Baily

Captain Hat : When you focus too much on the technicality of music and less on the aesthetic parts of songwriting, it's kinda sad. Someone can play the shit out of a guitar, but that doesn't mean they're ARTISTS. What makes something artistic is the symbolism and the interpretations open to the listener and the intended interpretations by the artist. When I hear heavy bands in general all I hear is cacophone and someone distoring their own voice so much you can't understand a word they say.

Just so I've got this straight, are you trying to suggest that black metal doesn't have an aesthetic?

Because, for the record, if you are, that's almost insultingly retarded. Just because you don't like what they're selling doesn't mean they aren't selling anything. Which has been my point all along- You may not like black metal, you may hate death metal, and you may despise grindcore with every fibre of your being. That's completely fine: liking it or not is a matter of personal taste, something I have no interest in arguing about. If you don't get it, then you just don't get it. That's fine.

BUT, claiming that it has no aesthetic, that it has no artistic merit, is quantifiably false. And there are plent of people out there who do get it, and I'd like to think that I'm one of them.

Black metal done right has one of the most well-defined aesthetics of any type of music out there- It's bleak, epic and dark, like a Norse pagan tragedy. Much as Rob Zombie's sludgy, grinding riffs and lyrics evoke the musical equivalent of classic schlock horror films, a lot of modern grindcore (notably Pig Destroyer) evokes the very essence of modern horror films like Saw. Death metal is all about anger and, to a certain extent, hatred, which is why I don't generally like death as much as other genres. It's very emotionally raw, though, as well as blisteringly heavy. Modern thrash is also about anger, though often in a more constructive sense- look at the lyrics to Killswitch Engage's Rise Inside, for example, and tell me they aren't great lyrics without lying. It's about dissatisfaction with the state of the world and a desire for it to change for the better.

Look at the Pixies. They play music that actually requires you to take the music and analyze it and actually THINK. There's no crypticism any more everyone usually shoves the meaning of their music down your throat. there is no thought, just heart on the sleeve, "Listen to what I have to say!" bullcrap.

Quite apart from the fact that the second half of this paragraph is completely untrue, the first half isn't even relevant. Sure, if a grindcore band was dealing with a realistic, complicated relationship or something with their songs, then the psychotic killer sound would be almost completely inappropriate, but the fact is they're dealing with raw anger, hatred and aggression. There's no way you can say that they don't portray their subject matter well- and anger itself is typically very direct in exactly the same way, so why should music about it be any different? Like I said, just because you don't like what's on offer doesn't mean nothing's being sold.

As for the Pixies... They don't really require anything. Sure, if you want to figure what a lot of their songs are actually about you have to think about them, but the songs are entertaining enough just in the way they sound that you don't have to think about them to derive entertainment from them. I'm not saying that's a bad thing- the Pixies are a fantastic band- but at the same time there are bands which do far far better at making you think. Give pretty much any Tool song, ever, a listen- Vicarious, Schism, Parabol/Parabola, Aenima, Jerk-Off, Hush, Sober, Stinkfist. They combine incredible musical complexity with some of the most challenging and thought-provoking lyrics in the business, all the while sounding more completely awesome than pretty much anyone else, ever.

Want to know something really special about deat/black metal or whatever? You can go to almost any music store, actually interact with a human being and order what music you want. What a concept, right?

Well, sure, but that's not the point: The point is that this removes a way in which the records could be obtained. In some cases it's justified according to eBay's stated rules, which is fair enough- though I'd like to see if they have also banned Nazi memorabilia and copies of Mein Kampf from eBay. In other cases, though, it's simply a question of overreaction, banning other stuff which looks similar without really looking into it.

While I'm not about to start wailing and howling about the death of free speech based on the removal of a couple of eBay auctions, it is the kind of ignorance that accuses these bands of having no artistic merit, or no genuine reason for existing, or just of being "too crap to exist" or whatever that is in my view the most insidious way of creeping in limitations on that freedom.

So be educated- You might not like black metal, and that's absolutely fine. I'm not going to call you a phillistine because fast drumbeats, tortured guitars and screaming vocals aren't your cup of tea. But don't ever try to claim that it has no artistic merit, or that the musicians aren't anything other than excellent musicians, because those things are quantifiably untrue.

[Meister]

Now, let's not go into the "it's retarded if you think thisandthat" argumentations, okay?

By the way, wasn't there or isn't there even a Christian black metal band? I know there's quite a number of Christian metal bands, but how is it with the more extreme variations of the genre?