The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Bob The Mercenary]

The way I understand it, free will lets us do absolutely anything we want without predestination, but if we happen to do something wrong, or "sin", God works it out for the better.

And how come anyone omnipotent can't be angry? You can know something bad is going to happen and be angry or sad all the same. But, it also says that we were created in God's image. Meaning he shares the same set of moods as we do, love, hate, sadness, etc...

[Edit] w00t for incoming page 8.

[ApathyMan]

I do believe in God. I also believe that organized religion is formed from secular politics. Hell, most eveything we know about God originates from texts that are really more health and wellness books than religions.

In other words, the entire subject is so bloated and inane with historical fallacies and leaps of logic that I just choose to ignore religion entirely and live in a temporal society. The forces above us are impossible to comprehend, so I just throw it on the backburner and focus on living a decent life.

And frankly, I doubt God would really care all that much, because if man truly was made in God's image, then He would certainly have changed the channel by now.

[Loki, The Fallen]

I mean, if you look at this all detatched like, this has got to be the most entertaining thing you could put on TV. You've got a bunch of people claiming to be on your side killing each other, all this while most of the people don't care and are doing other goofy things, like making movies for You Tube and getting in screaming matches over who's bosses/overlords are dumber! It's like the ultimate reality tv...

But I see what you mean, I think he would find our internet a bit more entertaining.

It's probibly even more entertaining for him because he sees the one person on the planet that found the one bag of holding he left us, and knows that person is going to store it in the portable hole he found in his backyard...
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edited because I can't spell...

[P-Sleazy]

Originally Posted by Mesden

Saying that god is omnipotent and omniscious, and yet limiting himself, therefore if he is somehow limited then he is not omnipotent. Any being that is omnipotent and omniscious will not become angry -- he already knew it was going to happen, and if he didn't, then he's not omnipotent.

The aspect of free will does not exist if he's omniscious -- it's a silly concept. And, yeah, you're going out on a limb by assuming he just limits himself this way (I mean, is that all Christianity does when confronted with logic? Go to making assumptions that kind of get around the logic? And not even that?). The phrase "God works in mysterious ways" sickens me, because he's actively 'testing' us and making us brood and suffer over his mysterious giant game called humanity.

If that's all loving, I don't know, I feel kind of let down.

And, finally, yes yes Purgatory, I really don't care for the semantics. =P

Just because God's limiting himself doesn't mean God itself is limited in the power God has. Its the same as saying I have an infinite amount of money, but I'll only spend $20 a day. Just because you have all that money (power) doesn't mean you have to use it. Does that mean I'm poor?

As for the omniscious, just because God knows everything that will happen, if action A happens doesn't mean God won't try to "influence" you with that little voice in your head to either Follow through with action A or change over to Action B or C depending on the outcome of each. Because God is omnipotent, doesn't that mean that God also knows what will happen with each action and then also know which action A, B, C, etc. you choose to perform? Doesn't that offer God the perfect Knowledge then to do just the right amount of influence so that it really does seem like "God works in mysterious ways"

Theres also a really good quote from one episode of Futurama that I can't think of at the moment.

Found it. "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

EDIT: Typo with Omniscious. Was spelled Omnipotent...Yea...

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary

And how come anyone omnipotent can't be angry? You can know something bad is going to happen and be angry or sad all the same. But, it also says that we were created in God's image. Meaning he shares the same set of moods as we do, love, hate, sadness, etc...

[Edit] w00t for incoming page 8.

Less on the omnipotence and more on the omnisciousness.

I mean, he'll directly get pissed and forsake man at the first mistake, as if it was some surprise, and that telling them wouldn't have sprouted their curiousity that he gave them, etc...

Edit:

Originally Posted by B_real_shadows

Just because God's limiting himself doesn't mean God itself is limited in the power God has. Its the same as saying I have an infinite amount of money, but I'll only spend $20 a day. Just because you have all that money (power) doesn't mean you have to use it. Does that mean I'm poor?

As for the omniscious, just because God knows everything that will happen, if action A happens doesn't mean God won't try to "influence" you with that little voice in your head to either Follow through with action A or change over to Action B or C depending on the outcome of each. Because God is omnipotent, doesn't that mean that God also knows what will happen with each action and then also know which action A, B, C, etc. you choose to perform? Doesn't that offer God the perfect Knowledge then to do just the right amount of influence so that it really does seem like "God works in mysterious ways"

Theres also a really good quote from one episode of Futurama that I can't think of at the moment.

Found it. "When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."

Yet again, this is all a blatant series of assumptions that have been added on to christianity ever since people started applying logic to it. I mean, what's and why's the point for god to watch and influence this massive little game of his?

Sounds like a very sadistic god for the sake of it all.

I mean, an eternity of unrelentless pain forever just because you were a 'bad' person in real life just seems like a grotesque fate that he already knew was going to happen.

Maybe there is a God, that's why I'm agnostic to this. But so help me there can be no way this omniscious being is all loving in a sense of what he's doing.

I mean, eternity of hell for less than 120 years on earth which were spent making the wrong choices -- eternity is the key word.

[Loki, The Fallen]

Mesden-

I mean, eternity of hell for less than 120 years on earth which were spent making the wrong choices -- eternity is the key word.

He did make it rather easy to get out of that whole eternity of damnation thing. (Well, depending on the specific branch you believe in.) Of course, the downside is the bit of persecution (granted, not as bad in this country as others) and being the butt of jokes for a while. Oh, and of course being demonized by the "Enlightened".

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Loki, The Fallen

Mesden-


He did make it rather easy to get out of that whole eternity of damnation thing. (Well, depending on the specific branch you believe in.) Of course, the downside is the bit of persecution (granted, not as bad in this country as others) and being the butt of jokes for a while. Oh, and of course being demonized by the "Enlightened".

And that falls into a slew of 'branch' based christianity, which just makes it worse that there are several branches claiming they're right and everyone else is wrong in the name of the same god, who still fits the sadistic, overviewer of the world who set up all of this based on...what exactly?

As far as I'm lead to believe, what you just said really doesn't change what I said.

I just have a hard time believeing 2 of my best friends are rotting in hell because they were mentally ill.

Yay Catholicism.

[Loki, The Fallen]

Well, I'm no big fan of the many branches myself. (Well, some of the branches are cool and all, but my opinion is Catholicism got the whole thing pretty weird... I mean, HATS!) Not sure every branch thinks the other is wrong (once again, maybe Catholicism, I'm not sure as I have not studied it, but, I mean, once again, HATS?!) (Of course, who am I to judge?)

The only thing that I'm challenging is the notion that for 120 years of making mistakes you are damned for eternity. It's more along the lines of 120 years not making that one pretty simple choice that will lead to Damnation. Last I read, he wasn't looking for perfection, otherwise he'd be pretty lonely up there, as we've all messed up at some point.

I guess from a point of view it could be considered 'sadistic', but would you prefer one who just forced everyone to do exactly what he wanted, instead of giving them a chance to prove themselves?

And I bet there are exceptions made... at least, from what he had written, regarding certain extenuating circumstances. But then again, I'm not Catholic, so I can't tell you what they believe.

[Mirai Gen]

Originally Posted by Nique

No one is saying that just because it's a religious belife it's ok. Obviously, some people choose to belive very directly harmful things. But it's not 'bullshit' to say that not all religions or religious belifes are bad. 'Religion' is neither - it is a banner under which to motivate a person or a group. It is the philosophy which drives the specific religion which makes it harmful or beneficial.

Your analogy is confusing. The puppet is the supposed 'illusory' thing, making it the religion... but we punish the person who drives it. Ta-da! People use religion as an excuse, not the other way around.

Edit: Dang! Ninja'd by Lock and MG.

All I'm saying is that you need to punish the person and make sure that you don't ignore the religion, otherwise they end up as a martyr for their cause and other followers (and possibly themselves) are even more motivated.

The reason I used the Scarface villain is because the Ventrilloquist doesn't know he's not real. Take that as you will. The Ventriloquist is our human, here, and Scarface is god. In the end, The Ventriloquist is doing all of the evil acts, but you can't just punish him and ignore that there's a part of him that he thinks is directed by a higher power. You just can't leave a man to be punished for his actions without explaining why his actions deserved punishment, and using the blanket of religion doesn't exclude people from that.

But, it's tough to keep going when we've got this many topics going. I'll stand aside.

[P-Sleazy]

I'm gonna second that part Loki said about us proving ourselves. And again, God's not looking for us to be perfect.

The same could be said about your "blatant series of assumptions" that God isn't omnipotent or omniscient or all loving. As far as I'm concerned, If God wasn't all Loving, there wouldn't be a purgatory, nor would there be a means for us to have our sins absolved, and Jesus wouldn't have happened. If God wasn't Omnipotent there wouldn't be a virgin Mary, parting of the sea, the plagues, passover, again Jesus. If God wasn't Omniscient, then there would be no prophets or scriptures fortelling of the comming of Christ.

And its not necessarily that if you're X branch of Christianity you're doomed to hell. Hell, even Jews and Muslims and Buddhists ect. (Minus Satanists) have a chance to go to heaven if they lead even half decent lives.

And then you also have your metally ill priests/people that tell you who goes to heaven and hell. That is not their call to make. Yes we can make our own judgements and take a guess. But it is not our place to judge others and their destination. The best we can do is make someone into a saint.

And remember just because thier a priest doesn't mean thier automatically high and mighty. Remember the Priests in NY that abused little Children? Just goes to show that even the people who have power to influence the people in their church aren't perfect.