The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Tydeus]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

Back to punishment and consquences.

I am right now unable to wrap my head around preventative punishment. Why should I care about committing an act if there are no direct consequences? If I want sex now and there is a chick and I rape her what will I learn from a punishment? Your being punished is a result or consequence of your actions, merited by those actions.

Not quite. See, punishment is not merited by the act itself, but as a deterrent to the act among the many, or as a way to instill a deeper fear of actually experiecing the punishment in the punished. Just as a dog becomes handshy, so would punishment seek to imprint on someone a connection of certain behaviors to pain and misfortune.

Though some individual may not personally learn from punishment for his evil deeds, society is by-and-large deterred from replicating them, and so a justifiable end is produced and upheld -- the very concept of an ordered society. However, torture, for example, serves no purpose (as a punishment, ignoring anything regarding interrogation). If imprisonment is enough to produce in society a general aversion to a certain misdeed, then torture is excessive, is vengeful, is unjustified. Similarly, if locking up marijuana users and sellers does no good to society (and arguably, it actually hurts our society), then the punishment is not justified. Whether or not the act itself is wrong or harmful is irrelevant. It's a cost/benefit analysis. For this reason I believe all drugs should be legalized, regulated, and taxed. Though they may be vices, in some cases quite severe, if punishment only produces further negative effects, it is useless, and merely vengeance, or some callousness to the punished, and either way is unjustified.

[Mesden]

Mesden, I have no idea of the grief you have faced for your friends, and the dissillusionment you have felt with the church. That is the works of man you are dealing with though, I have all faith in the fact that a perfect knowledge and understanding was given to your friends before their time was through, they will have had their choice. GOD does care and love us all, He created us to have free will so we our choices would have value. He wants us all to choose life eternal with Him, but that would have no value without our free will.

Disillusionment? I asked several ministers quite blatantly what would become of my friends -- they were both atheists and took their lives together. I made sure to get the most blatant, truthful answer they could give me, because I didn't want a stretched truth about people I cared so much for.

I was told they would go to hell. Everytime, because they never accepted Jesus and God.

I didn't say I went through a self-religious crisis to say it -- I absolutely mean that it was a crisis upon me.

I don't know where this difference in the theology of hell comes from between you and the priests I've talked to and forced this answer from, but even people in this thread have said that you accept Jesus here or go to hell.

If you die and then get to choose -- you see an afterlife and are presented the question, then fine, I could possibly take solace in that -- maybe, but that's not definitive. Christianity is hardly definitive, as can be shown with the pseudo-retreat phase they've been in since times of questioning.

But, if it is what you say it is, then I have nothing to worry about, I can continue my life this way and when I am actually shown that there is something there and that there is some semblance and reason to all the strife and seemingly uncaring things that are God's word, when I am shown that, yes, it's all real and true, then I can accept it.

But that's not definitive, I've been told every other time that you have to 'accept' Jesus here or fry, more or less.

And, as per Bob's reasoning, that is disgusting.

It is disgusting to assume that my friends, which I thoroughly assure you were wonderful people, will go to hell because they were wrong, even though they had reason behind it.

And that, even worse from that, a terrible, rotten waste of a human being -- just an absolutely evil person can go to Heaven for making the right choice once?

This is not an all-loving God, no matter how you present this reasoning to me.

This is a God that sends good people to hell and lets bad people in Heaven.

This God is not what Christianty says he is, by Christianty's own decrees.

This post may be overly emotional, sentimental, whatever you wish to call it, but it is my reasoning, it is my thoughts on the matter, and whether anyone here wants to admit it or not, your emotions are part of you and help form your schema, and have every right to be part of how you come to a decision.

[Nique]

I'm just curious, what is the general feeling towards an extremely religious person who;

1. Actively shares his faith with others
2. Does not belive in Hell, or an Immortal soul
3. Does not belive in modern miracles (faith healing, etc)

I'm having a hard time with this thread... I can raise an argument with almost everyone becuase so many different things are being discussed all at once. There are a lot of specific belifes I can't abide by becuase they either don't find enough support in the Bible, or have no other verifiable proof (i.e. immortal 'soul'). And then of course I still belive in the judeo-chirtian God becuase I belive the Bible constitutes a reliable source of information, so I'm at odds with most theists and atheists alike.

Originally Posted by Mesden

I was told they would go to hell. Everytime, because they never accepted Jesus and God.

It's admirable that you asked for an honest answer, but this is why I've never found the concept of hellfire to work. Let's break down a very basic religious tenent and make it as close to a math equation as we can - God's four cardinal attirubtes, Love, Justice, Wisdom, Power. Now, those can be a little abstract, so don't over think the meanings too much. Keep it simple.

-Would a God who is powerful torment someone forever? He might. He is certainly capable of inflicting pain indefinatly... but that doesn't provide a reason to do so, only the means by which he might.
-Would a God who is loving torment people eternally? Well, probably not... unless it was the only means of keeping a harmful influence away from 'good' people, maybe, but a 'powerful' God doesn't face this kind of choice, he's got other options.
-But what about Wisdom? Is their a goal or purpose in tormenting someone forever? I mean, once they're dead, what more harm could they do? Eternal torment amounts to spite, then, becuase it serves no purpose.
-And Justice? This is the good one. Let's say someone sins - not just a little, but everyday, intentionally knowing they are insulting God. This person lives a good 80+ years, and then bites the bullet. Does the comparitivly limted time this person spent disobeying god, and maybe harming many others along the way, balence out with an eternity of torture? I mean, we can't put specific numerical values on 'sin' or methods of torture, but I think we can be reasonably sure that eternal hell is an example of injustice. It's simply overkill.

But, you know, I've been told I will go to hell becuase I don't belive in it, so I'm not sure how you win in that scenario.

Let's see... Beyond the issues of doctrine being disscussed, we still have the 'empirical' argument going... I think, what I would like to discuss is the Bible's credibility outside of the 'God's exsistance' issue. Some points had been brought up regarding translation error, and accuracy and such... There is a wealth of information on biblical accruacy if you're looking for it.

I mean, to hear some arguments, it's like this issue doesn't even matter becuase, apparently, we're all just going on 'gut-feeling'? I don't think that's appropriate in a setting where religious belife in being debated on grounds of logic and reasoning.

Yes, there is a certain amount of 'feeling' involved, becuase it is a part of who we are as humans... but can we get out of this philosophical cycle of 'Logic matters!' vs. 'No it doesn't!'? There are other avenues to explore.


Edit! Appropriate comic!



Link!

[Demetrius]

Revelation 20:14, Malachi 4:1, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Revelation 9:2.

You purport to follow the Bible, yet you ignore these things (pertaining to hell)?

I would say Nique that you have a set of personal beliefs, not a religion. It is good that you are active in your beliefs even if I don ot agree with them.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

Revelation 20:14, Malachi 4:1, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Revelation 9:2.

You purport to follow the Bible, yet you ignore these things (pertaining to hell)?

Not at all -- I used to follow the Bible, a long while ago.

I can not state exact passages that go exactly with what I say, and I can't have the time to read through the massive book for them, but if someone else (Say Bob, who supported the truthfulness of what I was speaking about) can, that'd be wonderful.

And really, even if evil people still go to hell, even if that, that's only half of what I said.

And not even the important half.

[Tydeus]

To debate using logic, as Nique suggested -- my post, impassioned and florid though it was (as is my natural proclivity), I thought it well reasoned. I used all manner of rhetorical devices to illustrate just exactly why the idea of Hell is, without a doubt, incompatible with love, compassion, humanity, or most any feeling but anger, for that matter.

But, since it's a good topic-starter, let's move forward in this vein. I agree that the Bible has immense historical value, but I stop when we get to the supernatural stuff. That, to me, is the effort of man.

And why? Well, the Judeo-Christian conception of God is physically impossible. Basic laws of physics prohibit such a God from existing. All knowing? Last time I checked, we had a little thing called "uncertainty principle." Omniscient? Information cannot travel faster than the speed of light, and thus this "being" would not be able to even communicate with itself, would not be whole, really, if it is also omnipresent. Which of course is also ridiculous, because we'd obviously detect the mass and/or energy of such a pervasive, supposedly sapient entity. Further, the immortal soul. Again, what is this made of? Matter? Energy? No? Then it doesn't exist. Simple, really.

God as creator of the universe? Please. How could a God have created the universe, and yet exist within it? This is absurd. I suppose it theoretically possible that a God did create our universe, either budding it off of its own universe, or through some completely incomprehensible faculty of the physics of its own universe. But such a being could not then come into our universe. At best, a Creator exists in some multiverse, or other such theoretical generative place/entity/whatever, knowing nothing of our world, our trials and tribulations.

You can't just ignore physics. You cannot have something that simply does not obey physics, that exists "outside of time" (as I have heard so many Christians say). That is not how our universe works. We have uniform physical laws, the same throughout our vast vacuum, and they do not allow for flexibility. One cannot be "outside time." One cannot be consisting of something other than matter or energy. One cannot transmit information faster than the speed of light. One cannot be omniscient. It is impossible. If God may disobey basic, well-founded physical laws, then why do we not all have magical powers? For, essentially, magic is what such a creature would be. Defying physical tenets inherent to the very fabric and construction of our universe. Such things cannot be.

[Demetrius]

Sorry Mes, was talking to Nique and his belief in the Bible, yet lack of belief in the content.

Mes, I have faith in the love of GOD, he looks out for us all and offers us every chance to make the right choice. In the end (speaking of their last moments/eternity) your friends made a choice, I amm confident that they were given a complete understanding before they had to choose. Hopefully they made the right choice. Similarly the knowledge that that one choice can redeem you despite what you do with the rest of your life gives me great hope. I screw up constantly.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

Sorry Mes, was talking to Nique and his belief in the Bible, yet lack of belief in the content.

Well, it was in regard to hell, which I was in the topic of, so there's that...

Mes, I have faith in the love of GOD, he looks out for us all and offers us every chance to make the right choice.

I remember somewhere earlier in this thread you mentioned the 'feeling' of God that you couldn't describe. Something about the sheer realization of God's existance being some motive of your life and a driving force for your Faith.

Maybe that's a difference between how you and I are thinking. See, even after years of religious living, I not once had some overwhelming feeling of "God". I could pray, hope, ask, beg, plead, cry and scream about it, but I've never felt anything special or some alien presence upon my being.


But yet, other people who were/weren't in a crisis as well were given this enlightenment? This reassuring feeling?

It might sound selfish, but why didn't I get anything when I needed it? To test me? Was he testing you when this feeling encroached upon your life, or did he just get the whim to help you and not me?

This God, the one everyone talks about and follows, hasn't impacted my life save for debating on whether he exists, and if he does, whether he cares or not. Maybe I just wasn't a good enough follower, but asking anyone who's known me for a good time, I'm pretty sure they'd tell you otherwise.

As far as I've heard, felt, and understood, I've seen nothing at all that shows that this God cares -- for me or my friends or anyone I hold dear.

That alone, forgetting all the other several reasons, is enough for me to 'lose my faith'.

In the end (speaking of their last moments/eternity) your friends made a choice, I amm confident that they were given a complete understanding before they had to choose. Hopefully they made the right choice. Similarly the knowledge that that one choice can redeem you despite what you do with the rest of your life gives me great hope. I screw up constantly.

Here's hoping, but I've been thoroughly assured otherwise.

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by Bob The Mercenary

Yeah. And I'd love to debate you on it.

All right, let's see what you have to say in regards to the Earth only being approximately 6000 years old.

Originally Posted by Nique

I'm just curious, what is the general feeling towards an extremely religious person who;

1. Actively shares his faith with others
2. Does not belive in Hell, or an Immortal soul
3. Does not belive in modern miracles (faith healing, etc)

Decidedly more tolerable than religious psychopaths?

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

And it's time for another installment of...

More Random Science Information that Barely Pretains to the Topic at Hand

Originally Posted by Tydeus

All knowing? Last time I checked, we had a little thing called "uncertainty principle."

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a mathematical limit to the precision of measuring a physical system. If one were to have, say, an infinite understanding of the system, say, during the Singularity (when we don't understand how the current laws of physics apply), one could necessarily make accurate predictions infinitely far into the future.

Originally Posted by Tydeus

Omniscient? Information cannot travel faster than the speed of light, and thus this "being" would not be able to even communicate with itself, would not be whole, really, if it is also omnipresent.

Tachyons travel faster than light.

Gravitons could theoretically be accelerated to above the speed of light as well, though they aren't there naturally.

And, while not information, there's a number of things relating to 'Quantum Computers' that I, admittedly, don't really understand, but theoretically -- while they couldn't exchange information at faster than light speeds -- they might be able to use parts on the other 'side' of the universe as if they were all one piece.

And there are a number of other theoretical ways to skirt the speed of light. The only real issue is causality, but there's absolutely no reason to believe that causality preserves itself, rather than other forces acting to preserve causality. Hell, at a quantum level, causality is... for lack of a better word, sketchy.

Originally Posted by Tydeus

I suppose it theoretically possible that a God did create our universe, either budding it off of its own universe, or through some completely incomprehensible faculty of the physics of its own universe. But such a being could not then come into our universe.

Creating a universe is not so hard as one would think. There are numerous theories as to how we could create a universe -- many include the possibility of getting ourselves there as well.

There are some who theorize that we have already created universes, albeit accidentally, in particle accelerators and the like.

This being, of course, the ironic conclusion of our discovery that we are abjectly unimportant. Our world, our solar system, our galaxy are not the center, are not unique. Even our universe is almost certainly not unique. So much so that even we could create one.

It's an amusing reversal, no?