The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Yes, but how is that helping? "Go to Heaven after I die? That's nice. Anyway, you say you follow a carpenter, right? Well, I'm busy building this house for a family who lost everything in a fire and couldn't afford homeowner's insurance. Mind giving me a hand?"

Because, you know, I'm pretty sure that's more what Jesus had in mind.

I guess the point is that, our time on this planet is, what, 60-80 years? Heaven is eternity. Christians tend to put that ahead of the problems they face now, which makes it seem like it gives us a reason to stop thinking.

[Edit] And Archbio, yes God created Satan because he created everything. And yes he knew he was going to rebel. Does that mean he wanted him to? He knows all bad things that are going to happen. He doesn't want them to happen, but because of free will, they happen. And yes he's perfect and could change the bad things and make them not happen. But that would break free will, leading us in a circle again.

[Edit 2] Another thing about eternity and hell and such. This world was supposed to be eternity from the start. But, we sinned, we fucked up, so we get to die. After that there are 2 possible fates, eternity with or without God.

[Archbio]

Bob,

yes God created Satan because he created everything. And yes he knew he was going to rebel. Does that mean he wanted him to? He knows all bad things that are going to happen. He doesn't want them to happen, but because of free will, they happen.

God doesn't sound all that impressive, then.

[Demetrius]

Yes, but how is that helping? "Go to Heaven after I die? That's nice. Anyway, you say you follow a carpenter, right? Well, I'm busy building this house for a family who lost everything in a fire and couldn't afford homeowner's insurance. Mind giving me a hand?"

Because, you know, I'm pretty sure that's more what Jesus had in mind.

Yup, it was what he had in mind, hence tithing, christian relief organizations, youth groups and church volunteering. I have spent several summers helping rebuild/repair homes for people who couldn't afford it asking nothing in return.

It's more of a temptation than a choice. Like I said, it's very sadistic to dangle a carrot in front of a horse, knowing there's a sharp blade inside of it. I don't know what sort of "loving GOD" would let people suffer unimaginably for obeying basic instinctual urges that very GOD instilled in them.

Where is the razorblade? GOD gives you the choice man, in the garden of eden man was given the other half of his choice and has paid for it since then.

Originally Posted by Genesis 3

15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring [a] and hers;
he will crush [b] your head,
and you will strike his heel."

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

Darn straight he instilled them in us, as a consequence of our actions! It was not a deterent, the deterent was when he said:

Originally Posted by Genesis 3

3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

The way it works in cause and effect, the consequences are applied after your actions. This is not the message of Christ however, His message is one of tolerance, love and forgiveness. I don't want anyone to go to hell, neither does GOD, that was why he gave us the choice to come to Him through Jesus.

Originally Posted by ZTG

Just throwing something in here. It makes absolutely no sense than an omnipotent being would need something like hell as a "deterrent" from sin. The entire point of a deterrent is to stop people from doing things you don't want them to do, which an omnipotent being, especially one that made the very people in question, would never have to resort to if it really didn't want people to do those things. The only way hell pans out is as some sort of sadistic experiment, then. Give beings urges and punish them if they don't resist. It's kind of like putting mice in rooms full of baited mousetraps.

Have you ever seen the movie Time Bandits? It will kind of help you out and its funny. Another thing to do would be to do some research on the precepts of christianity, not just work on what you have heard through word of mouth, jaded teachers and the news.

[Loki, The Fallen]

And Loki, locke expressly has no 'doctrine'. I'm not much happier than he is about people constantly calling athiesm a religion. I can understand how atheists can be religious about their non-belife, but this point has been beaten to death.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

Of course, this is just a dictionary. And not all dictionaries have carried the same meanings. I'm also not sure if I have called it a religion yet, I think I called it a Doctrine

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/doctrine

Quite close I know. But that has been one of my arguments with Locke for a while, ever since he wanted me to stop placing religion and science on the same level.

I have to admit that was worded rather poorly on his part.

Worded poorly? He set the stage, He sent His Son when he wanted to. What kind of message would it send if you asked for proof and God jumped? Would you not continue to doubt? It has been said on the thread before the even Scientist who would have a living 'God' arrive would still wish to study him for untold amounts of time, and still find a way to make their Doctrine fit the newly discovered reality by finding 'new laws'.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Archbio

Bob,



God doesn't sound all that impressive, then.

Then your standards are RIDICULOUSLY high.

[Demetrius]

According to most christian traditions (except mainly the gnostics), Satan is also created by god. Many go so far as to say that god knew that Satan was going to rebel. That makes sense in relation to the claims of omniscience and predestination.

This is only more reason why this is a cop-out.

Not a cop out man, its part of the institution of free will. How do you make a choise when there isn't a disparity? GOD's plan is perfect, he created man to be with Him, and to praise Him. If you make a batch file on your computer that says "You are great" over and over again who cares? Your girlfriend or significant other tells you how much they love you and want to be with you, that is something. They have a choice in the matter and they choose you.

[Archbio]

Bob,

Then your standards are RIDICULOUSLY high.

No, they're not. When I hear omnipotent, I don't expect the explanation to reveal powerlessness.

And that's what this. Reading your explanation, this god had two choices: not create anything and creating a universe that dooms a good deal of his creatures to an eternity of torture (something he doesn't want). Free will is the excuse given why god couldn't arrange for this to be impossible, and why god couldn't repair the situation.

In this narrative, free will loses its meaning, and god doesn't seem to have any more of it than Satan.

You're certainly overestimating the explaining power of free will. God doesn't want to control our actions? That's all well and good, but he certainly can control the consequences of our actions when these are unintended by us or it. If god is truly omnipotent, that is.

In any case, the whole deal with hell not being in god's control but very much aligned with its will is patent nonsense.

[Bob The Mercenary]

God DID repair the problem. He sent Jesus. Now it's up to people to accept that.

[Demetrius]

In any case, the whole deal with hell not being in god's control but very much aligned with its will is patent nonsense.

Not following what you mean here.

So are you just ignoring the whole explaination of free will because you want to?

In this narrative, free will loses its meaning, and god doesn't seem to have any more of it than Satan.

You're certainly overestimating the explaining power of free will. God doesn't want to control our actions? That's all well and good, but he certainly can control the consequences of our actions when these are unintended by us or it. If God is truly omnipotent, that is.

Because that's what it looks like you are doing. Control negates free will. If a mouse in a maze has a left or a right it can take it has a choice, but if I close off one of them there is no longer a choice. Yeah he could do that, but he doesn't (see my explaination in the last post). Also it is not my religion that condemns a person to hell, it is that person that condemns themselves. GOD says straight out that you have these two choices and each one results in a definate consequence.

[Archbio]

Bob,

God DID repair the problem. He sent Jesus. Now it's up to people to accept that.

Lots of creatures: still doomed to torture. Universe and its rules: still hijacked by entities supposedly hostile to god. Even thought that entity and the laws of the universe are all done by god.

If only the god of the bible wasn't so amused by making the universe in such a way that it could be interpreted as blatantly contradicting the account of the bible, and by hiding out of sight for several centuries.

How could he know it wouldn't be all people wouldn't blindly believe what one specific ancient text among many others says? That's right, he's god.

Oh and the hoops god has to go through to go around his own universe and save us from its own will? Hilarious.

Demetrius,

Not following what you mean here.

Satan rebels against god. Then, Satan makes people go to hell (according to the person I was replying to) when they don't follow god's will. Satan insures that following god's will has an upside. Hell and Satan become instruments of god's will, against god's will. Incoherence reigns.

I've given my answer to the Free Will nonsense already.

Also it is not my religion that condemns a person to hell, it is that person that condemns themselves.

God created satan, hell and the mechanism by which they operate. On the otherside, there are very good reasons to doubt the existence of this god or hell. God is responsible for damnation, indirectly in general, and directly for many people.