The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by 42PETUNIAS

Care to give an example or quote from the bible? I don't know about anybody else, but I've never heard about this as a christian thing, so some evidence in the bible would make it a little more believable for me. Also, that seems like the same logic that leads to islamic suicide bombers killing themselves to get much better treatment in heaven. (I think someone mentioned something about them getting 70-something virgins/peas when they went to heaven)

Sure thing.

First of all there's the parables the tenants. Each tenant has a different award given to them. Also Jesus did the one who puts himself last shall be first, and he who puts himself first shall be last. That would imply that not everybody in heaven is given the same rank, so to speak.


For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
—1 Corinthians 3:11-15

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
—2 Corinthians 5:10

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
—Matthew 12:36-37

These verses are the biggies for this. "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." I think it seems pretty clear that the serial killer who comes to Christ at the last moment gets to heaven, but by the skin of his teeth so to speak..

"each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." Also implies that your reward/punishment is relative to the good or evil you do on Earth.

Many Christians ignore verses like this and think that salvation is the start all and end all. Things put forward in the New Testament, which very few verses actually refer to the afterlife, beg to differ. I'm not surprised you've never heard of it.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

It would be nice Zak, if you would pay attention to all of the posts, not just the ones that you can poke holes in.

It would be nice if I knew what you were talking about.

Originally Posted by Demetrius

GOD set the world into motion played His pieces, set the rules and lets us do what we will. If He wanted this to be easy sure He could pop up in the skies proclaim His power, but then what's the point? Everyone believes and it takes no faith, it would be about as meaningful as me knowing that my pen is here in front of me. GOD gives you a choice, and the power to choose. He needs to fix nothing because it isn't broken.

So believing in God is inherently an uncertain matter? I mean, if it were obvious that there was a god and all that, there'd be "no point." Yet those that end up not putting their faith in something flaky get eternal punishment? It just doesn't seem fair to me.

Originally Posted by Demetrius

If you make a batch file on your computer that says "You are great" over and over again who cares? Your girlfriend or significant other tells you how much they love you and want to be with you, that is something. They have a choice in the matter and they choose you.

That's a poor analogy, because you don't make your girlfriend or significant other. God, on the other hand, did totally craft man.

God doesn't do things to "see what would happen." God already knows, basically by definition. There's no way God could make an intelligent species while thinking, "I wonder if they'll honor me." It already knows the answer damn well. The only way that could work is if the great one literally rolled the dice to determine what this world would be like and then created it without ever actually observing the result of the dice roll.

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

These verses are the biggies for this. "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." I think it seems pretty clear that the serial killer who comes to Christ at the last moment gets to heaven, but by the skin of his teeth so to speak..

If you say so. Seems like that could mean a lot of different things to me... and I can't think of a single one of them.

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

"each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." Also implies that your reward/punishment is relative to the good or evil you do on Earth.

I don't see how. If you have done good, you receive paradise. If you have done evil, you receive damnation. No implication of levels.

Not that I personally care whether the afterlife is further tiered. Just saying that your citations aren't very convincing.

Originally Posted by Dragonsbane

Actually, I haven't seen the existence of a creator-deity disproved or debunked yet

That's because it's impossible. You see, the more complex a definition you give to your god, the more implausible it becomes (in the absence of evidence, anyway), and the easier it is to discredit. An definition so simple as "creator of all" actually carries very little meaning. You might say the universe always simply existed, or that it existed because something created it intentionally. There's no way to tell, and there are zero implications either way.

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by Swordchucks

"each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil." Also implies that your reward/punishment is relative to the good or evil you do on Earth.

As far as I know, heaven is perfection. Plain and simple. You can't have more or less perfection, it's perfect, and that's all there is to it. I could easily believe variation in hell, because it seems bizarre for any intelligent God to send good people to hell simply because they never came into contact with christianity.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by 42PETUNIAS

As far as I know, heaven is perfection. Plain and simple. You can't have more or less perfection, it's perfect, and that's all there is to it. I could easily believe variation in hell, because it seems bizarre for any intelligent God to send good people to hell simply because they never came into contact with christianity.

*shrug* You asked me to provide scripture for why I believe that, and I did. There are no verses saying that heaven is 'perfect' however. In fact, to be completely honest, there's no verses saying we'll spend eternity in heaven. Many verses say there will be a new heaven and a new earth. If heaven was perfect, I can't see why God would need to make a new one. Also it says that the children of God will inherit the earth. It also says that Jesus will set up his throne on the new earth and it shall be his New Jerusalem. I'm no theologist, but one could take that to imply that we won't be in heaven all that long anyway.

Really, I don't know any more than anybody else when it comes to what happens after you die. But I do know that most typical conceptions of heaven and hell are completely societal based and have very little scriptural backing. I take what I read in the Bible, and I take what makes sense to me based on that... and the standard ideas of heaven and hell don't make sense based on the Bible itself.

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

If you say so. Seems like that could mean a lot of different things to me... and I can't think of a single one of them.

Sure it could mean other things. But it could also mean exactly what I think it means. There's nothing in the Bible that contradicts that idea, so as far as I can see my idea is as good as any other. I'm not trying to be convincing... 42Petunias asked me did I have bible verses to support why I believed that, and I delivered. Whether you get the same meaning from it or not is totally up to you.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by 42PETUNIAS

I could easily believe variation in hell, because it seems bizarre for any intelligent God to send good people to hell simply because they never came into contact with christianity.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. (Romans 2:14-16)

We all have a conscience and a sense of what is right and wrong written on our hearts from when we are born. What this verse means is that people who have never heard the rules set down in the bible won't be judged by them. But, people who have heard it will be.

Or as Rich Deem puts it:
"Paul also tells us that those who follow the law (e.g., practicing Jews) will be judged by the law. The people who have never heard of the law are judged by the law of God which He has placed into their hearts."

[ZAKtheGeek]

That's kinda weird. Why do we need a bible to tell us what to do if we have laws in our hearts?

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

That's kinda weird. Why do we need a bible to tell us what to do if we have laws in our hearts?

If you're trying to find a way through a foreign city, you have some sense of direction. You could potentially find your way through all on your own. But its still nice to have a map.

[Tydeus]

Very Important:

I've heard this thread referred to as a "war of attrition." That distresses me, because it presents an attitude that is quite contrary to any kind of decent spirit of debate.

We atheists should not be concerned with winning any kind of "war." We should be concerned with being right, knowing the truth -- at least as much as we can, as human beings. I will not defend any portion of my beliefs if they are clearly pointed out as false. I've admitted my wrongness at least once so far, when Swordchucks pointed out a logical fallacy in a post of mine. I did not try to defend it -- I was wrong. I've also modified other views, in cases where I was not so much wrong as imprecise.

And once, although I never addressed my wrongness explicitly (for the debate had moved far on by the time I returned), I was wrong, regarding physics barring the existence of God. I was informed otherwise. Let me openly admit now, that I was intellectually pwned. I admitted to myself when it happened anyway -- why should I not want to admit it here?

In essence, what have I done in being proven wrong? I've moved closer to truth. I've expelld from my belief system an irrational and illogical and downright wrong facet. This is my aim, always, in all things. Especially in debate. I am glad that there are people here, in this forum, with the intelligence and clarity to hone my thoughts. And I hope I may do the same for them.

Of course, go and argue your views, and do so with force and vigor. But do not view this as some war to win. View it is a communal effort staged by humans to help us all move toward the truth. I think the Christians here have done a far better job of this than the atheists.

After all, what is proselytizing, if not an effort to bring others to the truth? That is a good and decent purpose, and I endorse it. I think that purpose is expressed poorly, and so I declare. But I am not the theists' enemy, nor even their opponent. I am their fellow human being, another consciousness attempting to approach truth, hoping to help us all approach truth.

If this is not the purpose of debate, then what is?

I have no axe to grind, no personal grudge that prevents me from admitting when I'm wrong. I've certainly got motivation to do so -- I've suffered the slings and arrows of the religious Right's attacks on homosexuality. I've had people tell me "I hate the way you talk, the way you walk, what you wear, how you act. I hate you. I hate everything about you people."

But you know what? It does me no good to bear a grudge against the worldview that spawned such bile. To do so would only hamper my own improvement and growth as a human being. Why would I let those who wish to harm me succeed by stifling my consciousness?

I think religion is a bad idea, and I think it is not the closet approximation to truth that exists today. I think it has negative effects on the world, and on all the individuals who practice it. I wish to aid others in seeing this, though if someone proved me wrong, I would take their demolition of my belief system as an act of love and kindness, and thank them for it.

This is why people hate atheists -- while the religious are out to "spread the Good News," the atheists are out to destroy your faith. It is perceived as an assualt. It is not. It should not be, anyway. It should be just one more group striving to show the world truth.

And to the Christians -- I hope you feel the same way. Yes, you have made a leap of faith, and you are thus fairly certain of your views. But I would hope that you consider it possible, at least, for somone to make that leap so tremendous, that you would no longer be able to make it. Even if you do not know how they would accomplish such a thing, I hope you believe it, in essence, to be possible.

I don't think this would run counter to your faith. Believing in God is believing in God. Having in your mind the possibility of losing your faith -- that is not the same thing as not believing in God. I am certainly capable of losing my atheism; I try to keep a healthy dose of doubt in my mind about such large matters. But that little bit of doubt of my beliefs, that possibilty of faith within me doesn't make me a theist. I am an atheist. I firmly believe that there is no God. But I am not certain. I am open yet, to the other side of the argument, and always will be, presumably.

So to hold in your minds the possibility of atheism would not make you an atheist. You would still believe in god, you would still be a Christian (or whatever else). But you would be open-minded. And so doubt and religion can exist in harmony. You can believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, and accept him as your savior, and yet have a little doubt, somewhere, way in the back. A little possibility, a little openness. Having the possibility of change does not make you changed. Does not change what you now are.

So, to all of us -- I hope we can view this not as a war of ideas, but as of a honing of wisdom. As martial artists spar and soldiers train, so too should humans debate, so that when the true enemy arises, we are all ready to face it.


Now, regarding specific posts:

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

I also think its difficult to characterize everything the way we do as humans. If God is good, for example, evil must have always also existed because in order for there to be good, there must be evil. The bible plainly states that people are evil, because there's not one of us who do nothing wrong. Even if you look at just the Ten Commandments, we're still all screwed, and it says no sin will enter into heaven. Thats where Jesus comes in... he atoned for all the bad things we did, so we get a free passcard to heaven inspite of being sinners. However, if you don't accept that he did that, then you're essentially saying "my sin is mine, and I still have it". Therefore, you cannot get in. Its not that God sends you to hell, its that you hold onto something that doesn't let you into heaven.

That, to me, makes a bit more sense. But only if we place limits on God -- no omniscience, and no omnipotence. Otherwise, we have no free will, and he could merely change heaven/himself to allow evil in (repsectively). Also, one assumes that God must be limited from direct interaction with us, or else he would have made far more direct efforts in trying to help us leave our evil behind. It's a different picture of God, but far more loving indeed.

I still don't buy it, for plenty of reasons, but we've got a whole thread to discuss that.

[ZAKtheGeek]

If you're trying to find a way through a foreign city, you have some sense of direction. You could potentially find your way through all on your own. But its still nice to have a map.

Or, everyone could have a built-in map. That should supposedly allow the unmaphaving societies to be as moral and good as the maphaving ones, so there's no unexplained heavenly cartographic favoritism.

Clearly your analogy doesn't work for my purposes, but I think you see what I'm trying to say.

[Bob The Mercenary]

There's too much I want to say, and again, I despise sending people to websites because I'm too dumb to come up with an argument on my own, but check this one out if you're going to look through any at all. It tries to answer every question we've talked about here and the man who writes it seems very knowledgeable on the subject.

And if you find logical fallacies, bring them up. I want you to show them to me if I'm reading something misleading. I'm also only human and, like Tydeus said, my opinion can change pretty quickly.