Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Sithdarth]

yea you want to know what also fits those definitions? Christianity.

Sects yes. Sects that are not a part of the main body of the religion. Sects that pay lip service to the ideas espoused by their parent religion and nothing more. Sects predicated on out right fanaticism and devotion. Things which are always harmful.

All religion have these off shoots but the main body of the religion and its devotees do not demonstrate any single one of these qualities. Except maybe a little bit of rapid faith. They are not obsessive about it. Now occasionally a person will become truly obsessed with an actual religion. That ends one of two ways:

1) They splinter off into a cult.

2) They self destruct all on their own because they are insane.

Either way they have no actual impact on the religion itself.

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

Sects yes. Sects that are not a part of the main body of the religion. Sects that pay lip service to the ideas espoused by their parent religion and nothing more. Sects predicated on out right fanaticism and devotion. Things which are always harmful.

All religion have these off shoots but the main body of the religion and its devotees do not demonstrate any single one of these qualities. Except maybe a little bit of rapid faith. They are not obsessive about it. Now occasionally a person will become truly obsessed with an actual religion. That ends one of two ways:

1) They splinter off into a cult.

2) They self destruct all on their own because they are insane.

Either way they have no actual impact on the religion itself.

christianity was a splinter group. A small group of jews following a charismatic leader proclaiming to be the son of god.

[Sithdarth]

christianity was a splinter group. A small group of jews following a charismatic leader proclaiming to be the son of god.

And yet Christ did not require overly obsessive worship. That's why it wasn't a cult. Which was also part of your definitions. There is always a charismatic leader at the head of any new movement of any kind. Its when that person demands utter worship that it becomes a cult.

I suppose you could say we don't know that about him or the leader of any new religion. Except that its universally the main tenant of all true religions. Namely your devotion, and not obsessive devotion, belongs to some higher power and not to someone earthly.

He, and many other initial leaders, may have claimed some sort of divine right but they never asked for direct worship of themselves.

[Meister]

Anytime you guys want to link this to what Scientology is doing today would be fine with me. You're bringing up interesting points, but you're also steering a little off track. Feel free to peruse the Big Big Thread for explicitly, non-Scientology related "how do religions get started" discussion.

[Aerozord]

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

And yet Christ did not require overly obsessive worship. That's why it wasn't a cult. Which was also part of your definitions. There is always a charismatic leader at the head of any new movement of any kind. Its when that person demands utter worship that it becomes a cult.

I suppose you could say we don't know that about him or the leader of any new religion. Except that its universally the main tenant of all true religions. Namely your devotion, and not obsessive devotion, belongs to some higher power and not to someone earthly.

He, and many other initial leaders, may have claimed some sort of divine right but they never asked for direct worship of themselves.

lets see, abandoning your old way of life to follow a man and believe whole heartedly in his ideals. Even though your position, wealth of any form, relationships, and even your life are under threat. To say this man is the savior of all mankind and you should follow him without question. Sounds pretty obsessive to me.

Now, that is all I will say on this subject as I find english so conveluted that any definitive definition of a word is nearly impossible. Also I get the feeling I could get Jesus to tell you he led a cult and you still wouldn't believe me. And I make it a point to not have pointless discussions.

besides, as was just stated we are off topic

[Sithdarth]

lets see, abandoning your old way of life to follow a man and believe whole heartedly in his ideals. Even though your position, wealth of any form, relationships, and even your life are under threat. To say this man is the savior of all mankind and you should follow him without question. Sounds pretty obsessive to me.

Then you have a very warped view of obsessive. Not to mention I didn't preclude the possibility of obsession followers. I said they do not demand it of their followers. Also, their is a difference between just being really darn convincing and inspiring the occasional obsessive person and demanding it.

Now, that is all I will say on this subject as I find english so conveluted that any definitive definition of a word is nearly impossible. Also I get the feeling I could get Jesus to tell you he led a cult and you still wouldn't believe me. And I make it a point to not have pointless discussions.

Pot and kettle. Oh and I'm glad someone else actually realize how horribly subjective language is and that even though we use the same words there are shades of gray that can become points of contention.

Anytime you guys want to link this to what Scientology is doing today would be fine with me. You're bringing up interesting points, but you're also steering a little off track. Feel free to peruse the Big Big Thread for explicitly, non-Scientology related "how do religions get started" discussion.

Sorry about that but the base point behind this is that Scientology requires an obsessive and unstable personality to buy into. It doesn't work if the followers don't have one. Further, its done nothing but continuous harm. It has directly caused at least one death I know off by denying the benefits psychology, it was a hotel in Florida I believe. It has also bankrupted and then abandoned more than a few people.

[adamark]

Chill. If some guy wants to criticize Christianity as a cult, let him. In my opinion, there is absolutely no comparison between Christianity and scientology, and to suggest that there is shows a severe lack of knowledge on the subject and theology in general.

Scientology is crazy and abusive regardless of the history or definition of Christianity. Germany is smart to ban its stupid public face (Cruise).

[Skyshot]

I think the complaint here is that the subject is not only a violation of the rules and basically constitutes trolling to boot, but that it's unrelated to the original subject of whether it's the German government's place to refuse usage of its military bases based on the religion of one of the people desiring to use them.

And on that note, you know what this thread is missing? A summation of the relevant German laws. (Come on, German dude. You're killin' me.) I mean, here in the States, we have the Bill of Rights, and the first amendment in that mentions religion, so if this were happening over here, we could argue over whether refusing usage of a military site counts as Congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Heck, it might could even be discussed without actually discussing whether Scientology is a cult and/or dangerous. Just, "hey, Germany's not letting them film a movie on their military bases because they don't like Scientology for whatever reason they don't like Scientology. Can they do that?"

[adamark]

Skyshot I will assume that it isn't trolling since the 'German dude' is a mod and would have corrected us if we broke the rules.

[greed]

Knowing what little I do of German law, I assume it has something to do with the laws they use against neonazis. It's probably generalised to include dangerous/criminal/cults organisations which happily Scientology fits under. Likely under laws designed to prevent said organisations from profiting from the use of German government property, which as Tom Cruise is getting paid for this movie it falls under.

I could be way off, but that's my guess.