Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion - Page 34

Ryanderman · 07-20-2007, 08:23 AM

I was trying to say that you definite fanaticism. Then you stated the Fundamentalists fit the definition of fanaticism. Then you declared that since they fit the definition of fanaticism, they are also intolerant and (though you didn't actually use the word) bigoted. But that's nowhere in the definition of fanaticism. That was my point. I'm not trying to bring common usage into the discussion to counter dictionary definitions. I was trying to show that you did.

Red Fighter 1073 · 08-18-2007, 07:44 PM

Since the activity in this thread has been kind of low, I thought that I would ask of a few of my own questions.

Like, do you believe that the world would be a better place without religion? My friend and I were talking about this, and she was saying that religion has led to many disagreements in the past causing genocide, war, and other really horrible stuff. But, at the same time, I argued that religion has also led to the creation of many different schools and has really helped people, almost as much as it has hurt them. What do you think, would the world be better without religion?

Also, one thing that I noticed is that whenever I talk to someone about their religion, they talk of theirs being the "absolute truth", in that their god is the true god, and what they believe is what really happens. But this is where it gets kinda sketchy because no matter what religious person I talk to, despite having different religions, they say their religion is the "absolute truth". That's understandable, but at the same time, is there really an absolute truth when it comes to something as unproven as religion or do you think that there is always a certain amount of faith involved in religion?

ZAKtheGeek · 08-18-2007, 08:10 PM

Certainly there is absolute truth. Everything is either true or false. Whether we can be certain of the truth of something is another matter entirely. And no, there's obviously no such thing as an absolutely true religion, in part because religions usually claim things to be true which are in fact subjective. I think I just contradicted myself.

As for the world being better without religion... "Better" is completely subjective, and on top of that, it's quite impossible to arrive at any answer. Going only by large, important events, for instance, is folly; small, immemorable things people do as a result of their various mindsets add up over time and probably make 10 shitloads of difference in any criteria of "goodness" you could possibly come up with. So it's a discussion I never partake in.

42PETUNIAS · 08-18-2007, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Fighter

Like, do you believe that the world would be a better place without religion? My friend and I were talking about this, and she was saying that religion has led to many disagreements in the past causing genocide, war, and other really horrible stuff. But, at the same time, I argued that religion has also led to the creation of many different schools and has really helped people, almost as much as it has hurt them. What do you think, would the world be better without religion?

Well, it's important to keep in mind that the church isn't creating the impulses to do any of this. Many of these things are human impulses and behaviours that are provided with reasoning by the church likewise, charity didn't originate with the church, but religion has merely acted to cheifly about the strife caused by organized religion, but that it has worked to divide humanity, rather than unite it, and this action has caused harm to mankind.

Toast · 08-18-2007, 08:57 PM

My personal opinion would be that more spirituality and less organized religiosity would make the world a better place. I do, however, agree that it is very subjective and the sheer number of variables makes it impossible to say with any amount of certainty whether it would be better or not.

As for absolute truth, wasn't there that joke going around a while back about how everyone goes to hell because every religion says that if you're not a member, you go to hell, and you can't be a member of every religion? Being more serious, I feel that spirituality is absolute truth, or as close as we're capable of experiencing it, and that religion is humanity's poor attempt at controlling that spirituality.

Fifthfiend · 08-19-2007, 12:38 AM

Basically my view on the nexus of religion and violence oscillates somewhere between "people would find stupid reasons to kill each other with or without religion" and "the unique aspects of religion amplify people's innate impulses to kill each other for stupid reasons," occasionally shading into "people who want to kill each other naturally gravitate towards religious rhetoric as justifications for kill each other."

Dunno to what extent any one of those observations accounts for the entirety of reality.

Also for "violence" feel free to substitute intolerance, oppression, authoritarianism, or whatever across the range of negative social effects with which religion may be colloquially associated.

Mesden · 08-19-2007, 12:42 AM

So yeah, I thought this was pretty cool and thought it should probably go here, considering the overall theme.

Fifthfiend · 08-19-2007, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesden

So yeah, I thought this was pretty cool and thought it should probably go here, considering the overall theme.

I'm pretty sure that guy stole his entire argument from Green Lantern comic books.

Mesden · 08-19-2007, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fifthfiend

I'm pretty sure that guy stole his entire argument from Green Lantern comic books.

Well maybe green lantern got it right!

Fifthfiend · 08-19-2007, 01:21 AM

Well, Green Lantern is a fighter pilot. You know those guys are pretty smart.

07-20-2007, 08:23 AM	#331
Ryanderman Beard of Leadership Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 827	I was trying to say that you definite fanaticism. Then you stated the Fundamentalists fit the definition of fanaticism. Then you declared that since they fit the definition of fanaticism, they are also intolerant and (though you didn't actually use the word) bigoted. But that's nowhere in the definition of fanaticism. That was my point. I'm not trying to bring common usage into the discussion to counter dictionary definitions. I was trying to show that you did. __________________ ~Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to stop, it turns. You tell it to turn, it stops. You tell it to take out the trash, it watches reruns of Firefly.~

08-18-2007, 07:44 PM	#332
Red Fighter 1073 Rocky Wrench Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,351	Since the activity in this thread has been kind of low, I thought that I would ask of a few of my own questions. Like, do you believe that the world would be a better place without religion? My friend and I were talking about this, and she was saying that religion has led to many disagreements in the past causing genocide, war, and other really horrible stuff. But, at the same time, I argued that religion has also led to the creation of many different schools and has really helped people, almost as much as it has hurt them. What do you think, would the world be better without religion? Also, one thing that I noticed is that whenever I talk to someone about their religion, they talk of theirs being the "absolute truth", in that their god is the true god, and what they believe is what really happens. But this is where it gets kinda sketchy because no matter what religious person I talk to, despite having different religions, they say their religion is the "absolute truth". That's understandable, but at the same time, is there really an absolute truth when it comes to something as unproven as religion or do you think that there is always a certain amount of faith involved in religion? __________________ My Sprite Sheet/Mafia Roles

08-18-2007, 08:10 PM	#333
ZAKtheGeek Worth every yenny Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: not my mind that's for sure! Posts: 1,299	Certainly there is absolute truth. Everything is either true or false. Whether we can be certain of the truth of something is another matter entirely. And no, there's obviously no such thing as an absolutely true religion, in part because religions usually claim things to be true which are in fact subjective. I think I just contradicted myself. As for the world being better without religion... "Better" is completely subjective, and on top of that, it's quite impossible to arrive at any answer. Going only by large, important events, for instance, is folly; small, immemorable things people do as a result of their various mindsets add up over time and probably make 10 shitloads of difference in any criteria of "goodness" you could possibly come up with. So it's a discussion I never partake in. __________________ Pyro Icon - It needs your love. I haven't looked at it in months.

08-18-2007, 08:57 PM	#335
Toast Existential Toast Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 440	My personal opinion would be that more spirituality and less organized religiosity would make the world a better place. I do, however, agree that it is very subjective and the sheer number of variables makes it impossible to say with any amount of certainty whether it would be better or not. As for absolute truth, wasn't there that joke going around a while back about how everyone goes to hell because every religion says that if you're not a member, you go to hell, and you can't be a member of every religion? Being more serious, I feel that spirituality is absolute truth, or as close as we're capable of experiencing it, and that religion is humanity's poor attempt at controlling that spirituality. __________________ “How dare you! How dare you stand there acting like your brand of suffering is worse than anybody else’s. Well, I guess that’s the only way you can justify treating the rest of us like dirt.” ~ Major Margaret Houlihan (Mash) “If we’re going to be damned, let’s be damned for what we really are.” ~ Captain Jean-Luc Picard (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

08-19-2007, 12:38 AM	#336
Fifthfiend for all seasons Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,409	Basically my view on the nexus of religion and violence oscillates somewhere between "people would find stupid reasons to kill each other with or without religion" and "the unique aspects of religion amplify people's innate impulses to kill each other for stupid reasons," occasionally shading into "people who want to kill each other naturally gravitate towards religious rhetoric as justifications for kill each other." Dunno to what extent any one of those observations accounts for the entirety of reality. Also for "violence" feel free to substitute intolerance, oppression, authoritarianism, or whatever across the range of negative social effects with which religion may be colloquially associated. __________________ check out my buttspresso

08-19-2007, 12:42 AM	#337
Mesden There is no Toph, only Melon Lord! Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Inside of a box inside of a smaller box Posts: 4,310	So yeah, I thought this was pretty cool and thought it should probably go here, considering the overall theme. __________________ I can tell you're lying.

08-19-2007, 01:21 AM	#340
Fifthfiend for all seasons Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,409	Well, Green Lantern is a fighter pilot. You know those guys are pretty smart. __________________ check out my buttspresso