Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Krylo]

The problem with the color analogy is this--we know green exists. Even in a colorblind world we would know green exists. It's simply the wavelengths of light between about 500-550nm in the visible spectrum.

The person who isn't color-blind is merely observing a wavelength of light slightly differently than his companions, and, honestly, the only reason he even knows he's seeing it differently from them is because he became 'uncolorblind' suddenly. For all we know, everyone perceives green light as a slightly different 'color' from everyone else... or even a totally different one.

God is not a spectrum of light. God can not be verified with instruments, like green can.

Look at Bob, for instance. Can you honestly say that he's a worse person due to his faith in God? I think its easier to say he's a better person.

I don't know man. I mean. It made him live and everything. Can you honestly say that's a good thing.

I mean, just LOOK at him. Mr. Unibrow of power over there.

Curse you, organized religion! Will your evil never stop!?
Seriously, making fun of Bob was like 98.5% of my reason for this post.

Hey everybody, I don't think that serenity exists. I can't see the posts, so they arent there right?

Man, I'm like five seconds from closing this thread. Just because Serenity is being annoying doesn't mean you get to be an ass back, just like Serenity got hollered at for being an ass a bit ago.

Also--don't make me force you into a usergroup without an ignore function to prove his/her existence.

[Fifthfiend]

The problem with the color analogy is this--we know green exists. Even in a colorblind world we would know green exists. It's simply the wavelengths of light between about 500-550nm in the visible spectrum.

The person who isn't color-blind is merely observing a wavelength of light slightly differently than his companions, and, honestly, the only reason he even knows he's seeing it differently to them is because he became 'uncolorblind' suddenly.

God is not a spectrum of light. God can not be verified with instruments, like green can.

By another way of putting it, "green" really isn't something that exists independent of our own sensory experience, it's purely an artifact of how our physiology happens to process wavelengths of light in the aforementioned range. Whereas God either exists or doesn't exist, and if he did would presumably be verifiable by some means other than some inner certainty that - let us be clear - doesn't even actually arise to the level of anything as objective as sensory perception, unless there's some organ I'm unaware of that's designed to detect the presence of supernatural dieties.

I mean and I don't get why you're under the impression that people who don't believe in God haven't 'felt' the same thing. Back forever ago when I was a church-goer I had that exact notion of an all-powerful being watching over me and guiding my destiny. It's just that I eventually determined that said feeling was utterly at odds with every single thing I could rationally observe and discern about the world around me.

[Mirai Gen]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

For the most part, the only reason Christians try to spread their belief is because, like the person who sees color, they think that other people's lives will be enriched and happier as a whole with God than without. The whole 'not going to hell' contributes too. We see countless people who've had their lives bettered due to belief in God (yes, it happens ALL the time). In fact, people that become worse people after becoming religious is incredibly rare. It might seem totally illogical to you. But that IS you, and you can't apply your own experience and thought processes to everybody else.

That's actually one of the foremost reasons I don't believe in God.

Why would God send you to hell for not knowing he exists? If he's all powerful and has a divine plan, what would be the point of creating a life that doesn't know about him so he can send it to hell?

Just thinking about the Bible makes me want to jump up, scream, "Objection!", and slam both of my hands on the table.

Whereas God either exists or doesn't exist, and if he did would presumably be verifiable by some means other than some inner certainty that - let us be clear - doesn't even actually arise to the level of anything as objective as sensory perception, unless there's some organ I'm aware of that's designed to detect the presence of supernatural dieties.

Agreed. I didn't like the whole "Green" analogy.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

That is not what the quote says and you know it.

Then what does it say?

And It also says that you will be judged, and it never says that you do go to hell, it's a warning. Simple enough eh?

So you're saying it's an empty threat then?

Again, That is not what I said, and you are being a real pain in the ass about this, IT DOES NOT SAY THAT PERSECUTION IS A GOOD THING. EVER. NOT ONCE. GET IT. This is the last time that I will try and make you actually read the passage that you are trying to skew. If you have anything else to say about it, feel free not to.

It specifically states you will be blessed for being persecuted. What definition of "blessed" means "not good"?

Where does it say that in the bible.

We were just talking about it.

....actually no...Do not anser any of the questions that I have previously typed. -
As a matter of fact, as far as I am concerned, to the degree of how you discuss this matter, all responses to you will now be cut off.

The degree of how I discuss this matter?

Hey everybody, I don't think that serenity exists. I can't see the posts, so they arent there right?
Prove me right/wrong. Whichever.

If Serenity doesn't exist, then who do you keep quoting?

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Elminster_Amaur

That God could be external to anything and still be all things is wrong. It would be more apt to say that a large portion of God is not a part of this Universe. However, in every religious tradition I've ever read, the true Creator (not the Father, but the Holy Spirit for you Christies) is all things and nothing. He is all things because nothing can live without Him(It? We?), nothing can be alive. At least, that's how I've always interpreted it.

I'm not sure what you're saying. It seems to be some kind of "God is within everyone," right? My objection's still good, then. A person's feeling something they decide to call "God" within themselves. But how is it reasonable to extrapolate to everything else and say this thing exists there as well?

I_Like_Swordchucks and his Amazing Technicolor God Coat:
Objection one: How does this person know they're not insane? They're detecting something nobody else is able to detect. That's almost the definition of insanity, isn't it? I mean, in that case they'd be wrong, but it's always something to keep in mind: maybe it's not the rest of humanity that's mistaken.

Odd thing to say, I know, from an atheist platform. But, I don't think most people see their religions like this at all. If nothing else, the whole bunch of ex-theists shows that no, it's not always some undeniable thing you can just sense and know must be there.

Objection two: The person described is acting... well, infantile, I guess is how I'd describe it. Why would you keep insisting and trying to show somebody something you know they are unable to see? That IS annoying, and that's something the person should recognize.

Objection three: Yes, the person does need proof that the colors "are there." They don't need proof that they're seeing something that wasn't there before, but they do need proof that there's something actually there, especially given that nobody can corroborate their perception. A bit of experimentation would show that they're able to distinguish EM wavelength variations in a much finer manner than their peers. Can you do this with God? Is there any correlation between your feeling and something that could be detected another way?

Objection cynical: Sure you're not misinterpreting? Maybe you're just taking it how you want to take it? I mean, damn, God is a pretty specific thing, with all sorts of attributes and actions. You're sure that what you're feeling is the omnipotent, intelligent, benevolent creator of all things? Come on, it even reads crazy.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

Hey everybody, I don't think that serenity exists. I can't see the posts, so they arent there right?
Prove me right/wrong. Whichever.

He doesn't, it was all a figment of your imagination.

[Krylo]

That's hilarious, and I wish I had thought of it.

[TheSpacePope]

Man, I'm like five seconds from closing this thread. Just because Serenity is being annoying doesn't mean you get to be an ass back, just like Serenity got hollered at for being an ass a bit ago.

Also--don't make me force you into a usergroup without an ignore function to prove his/her existence.

Please don't do that,I wasn't being literal, but a dick, true enough, but I finally calmed down enough to post again.

God is not a spectrum of light. God can not be verified with instruments, like green can.

Not any instruments that we have, but if you want to look at it that way, there were no subatomic particles until we were able to detect them, so I don't know about the "detectable quantity" hypothesis.

Why would God send you to hell for not knowing he exists? If he's all powerful and has a divine plan, what would be the point of creating a life that doesn't know about him so he can send it to hell?

Short answer, he doesn't.

I don't like the idea of hell and I am failry sure that it is an invention of man.
You have to remember that over the years, the bible has been preverted by despots and tyrants to cow the local populations into obediance. Now think of a better way to do it other than telling them that they go to a firey pit of unpleasantness if they do not obey.
I really honestly think this is the case, because there cannot be a just God and a God that sends people to hell, they are nutually exclusive.
the reason that I don't think there is a hell is because God describes himself as love incarnate when he is preaching as jesus. and It is not until later in the bible that hell is mentioned. Someone who is love incarnate couldn't concieve of a place as dark and as scary as hell. That beast was dreamed up in the minds of men.

[Elminster_Amaur]

How does this person know they're not insane? They're detecting something nobody else is able to detect. That's almost the definition of insanity, isn't it? I mean, in that case they'd be wrong, but it's always something to keep in mind: maybe it's not the rest of humanity that's mistaken.

If you look back in history, you'll see that almost all innovators would fit this description, so why is it so hard to believe that someone can experience something different from everyone else and not be wrong? I mean, Einstein experienced reality differently from most of us, but I don't see you saying he was insane.

[Fifthfiend]

Returning to Swordchuck's post --

Is it any more right to condemn Christian as an illogical fool for what he believes anymore than its right for the Christian to treat you as a godless pagan for your beliefs? I think no.

Um...

For the most part, the only reason Christians try to spread their belief is because, like the person who sees color, they think that other people's lives will be enriched and happier as a whole with God than without. The whole 'not going to hell' contributes too.

Well apparently you are, in fact, condemning people to eternity in perdition for not believing as you do, so I'm really not seeing what grounds you have for complaint here.

But really, I don't know about the "fool" part but I really don't get why you're so upset about the illogical part, as you yourself are describing your belief - specious analogies to sensory perception set aside - as what is rather straightforwardly an entirely inexplicable compulsion to believe. That's not a logical thing. I mean it could even be right, that still wouldn't make it logical.