Please have a look on my OOTS styled comic based on Baldur´s Gate - again!

[CelesJessa]

11. the reason why I posted this here is to get feedback on how to improve it

People have been giving you feedback on how to improve. It would be a lot more effective if you didn't just dismiss and challenge every single thing someone says, save for, what, two tiny things that really has nothing to do with improving your comic at all? A great way to make people not want to critique your work is to argue with every single point they come up with. Especially after

using a different style is NOT improving it (see 4)
using a different story is NOT improving it (see 10)

If people can't critique the art or the story, what is there left to critique?


As far as my own experience in art and storytelling, I've learned that if you have to explain why whatever you're doing is working, then it is obviously not working.

5. if I´m wordy (which I´m not), what about http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

Just because that other comic is more wordy than you are doesn't make you not wordy.

As for actual critique, (which I already realize means absolutely nothing because you'll just argue with everything I say and explain why, in fact, whatever I am critiquing is not problematic) I have to agree that the language makes it kind of hard to read. I have no idea what "Brr, your rooker is cold like the *eighth*" is supposed to mean.

And the art, (and this is coming from someone who is not a long time reader of Order of the Stick), I really don't think that style is working for the SERIOUS storytelling that is apparently going on. The bright colors and goofy-looking cartoony characters just subconsciously sets me up expecting some kind of joke. It's not completely impossible to use such a style to tell something serious, but as it is right now, I really can't take whatever SERIOUS stuff that's going on seriously because of the style. Seriously.

I'm well aware that you are dead set in your ways, but I'm just saying. I'm aware that you're making this for yourself as you've said, but the minute you post it online ASKING FOR COMMENTS is the moment that you have to expect people to maybe not share your same ideals of what makes a perfect comic. You aren't required to agree with them, or change anything to please anyone else, but arguing with critique when you ask for critique is just... I dunno, counterproductive?

[Cid Highwind]

Originally Posted by Leper Messiah TR

-)my main concern is REALISM, namely to simulate what could have happened in a universe where gods and magic exist, with realistic (yet unique) characters and dialogues, without the metagaming and fourth-wall-breaking you maybe know from your favourite comics

Okay, if you say its based on realism and avoids metagaming and fourth wall breaking, why does the very first comic have 3 frames of dice rolling?

Also, its been said, but the nadsat is extremely frustrating for other people to read. If I were to just interject random words into my posts, nodody would understand it easily, nor would they attempt to read hwat I write. At this point, 50% of what is said in your comic is like this, which, on top of the fact that we have no idea where they are, what they are doing, and what is going on in general (and the fact that I cant even tell Aina is a girl), basically makes the writing uncomprehendable.

However, I'm not sure why I'm trying, because youre apparently just going to throw out what I say, and do what you want, even though you are asking for help.

[Fifthfiend]

5. Problem isn't that you're wordy, it's that none of the words are interesting. Three strips in and I don't know what on earth is going on, which would be fine, except I also don't care enough to bother finding out. Even a slow-build introduction should make the characters lively enough that I would want to continue reading about them.

7/8. Hey, you're the one posting here asking for opinions. If you want to write your stick-figure drama comic and damned to what anyone else thinks then hey more power to you, so go do that instead of worrying about responding to we all here and what we thin.

9. Realism != boring. Or I mean yeah sometimes it does, it's just that nobody wants to read things that are realistically boring. So work on writing things that are realistic and interesting.

Or I mean hey don't, and don't worry about what people here are saying and just do your own thing and figure out for yourself what's good and what isn't. There's worse ways to go about things, and it's not like anyone ever got better at writing by not writing.

I mean I suspect that what you wanted here was to post your comic up here and have a bunch of people tell you how clever and great and grand you are and what a wonderful comic you've written, but... well at least on this forum that ain't how we roll. It takes a whole lot of work to write something that is honestly and legitimately good and while you're working towards being able to do that one thing you have to get used to is people telling you that you suck.

[Mike McC]

I was just letting you know if you do intend on using a style identical to a very well established comic's style, people will accuse you of being a hack, a copier, and perhaps even a plagarist. That is inevitable. If you persist with using it, and that is ultimately your choice, be prepared to be constantly accused of that, for constant comparisons to be drawn, and being regarded as an inferior product regardless of any merits your work has.

Also, this may be the first instance in which I have witnessed CJ being irked and irate.

[Kim]

It's not comedy? I would probably realize that if I read it, but the style makes me want funny. The Star Wars thingy at the beginning that was too many damn words for me to care made me expect funny. The dice rolling I glimpsed below made me expect funny. So, you're building up expectations and defying them? If you do that, do it well or not at all. Defying expectations for the sake of defying expectations isn't always a good thing.

Secondly, get my attention. Have something that makes me say, "Hey, I want to read more of this." It could be anything. A cool action scene or something. Something weird and/or strange that I want to know what's going on. A really funny event that get's me attached to the characters. Something. Not to be rude, and I'll probably have to edit this later to minus the rude, but there is absolutely nothing I have seen that makes me even vaguely interested. I don't have the patience to read several pages worth of dialogue to see if something interesting happens, and most of your readers won't either.

[Mirai Gen]

(and nobody of you has even made a comment on the actual story, which is the MAIN important thing for me)

Being honest nobody has any sort of basic idea as to what the hell the story in question is. So, yes, we are commenting on the story. We're commenting on the fact that none of us have any idea what's going on. Clearly that should be something you're aspiring to improve.

And, dude, you can't just say it isn't comedy. You can't. First comic's (11th comic's?) ending is a punchline where Imoen kicks at Aina and 'misses' instead kicking her in the crotch. I mean if crotch-kicking isn't an attempt at comedy then I can't imagine what kind of epic story you've got planned.

As to 5, try starting the story from a more logical standpoint. Gorien gets killed. First comic. Black Knight walks over, raises the axe, hesitates, and leaves Aina alive.

I mean at the very least your first comic will make people go, "Wait, what?" That was the point behind the completely awesome OOTS first comic - the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion joke was a great setup for any DND player and it got you interested real fast.

Argue against it all you want. We're still your readers whom have given you enough time to say, "Dude, you've got to improve." Ignoring us isn't going to help at all.

[phil_]

Here's something nice and simple that you desperately need to improve. Speech bubbles go left to right, top to bottom, and stay within the panel where they're said. Following this simple rule makes a comic much more readable. There are times where you will have to bend this rule, either as a concession to layout or for special effect. These exceptions should be just that: exceptions.

Your bubbles seem to be wherever you can fit the between the characters, listing mostly in a down-left direction, but only when taking the page as a whole. Bubbles pop up panels ahead of where they're said far too often and never (as far as I can tell) for any special purpose other than "I've run out of room; gotta put this somewhere." Even those that stay in the panel can only be pieced into order after reading them all, and the order usually isn't what their layout would suggest.

I suggest either larger panels so that you can fit the bubbles where they belong or considering bubble layout more heavily in your pre-writing.

Also, here are some extra, miscellaneous points of advice in the order they occur to me. You're going to burn out so, so hard doing comics as long as the three you've posted; maybe go for a bit shorter comics after this. Aren't there legal issues with, to use my "getting along with others" words, borrowing the plot, characters, and setting from Baldur's Gate? I'm pretty sure at least 90% of that stuff is copy-righted and trademarked. If you're doing a comic mainly for yourself, why are you putting up betas for us to see? I think Mirai Gen brought up how bad having different heights for the characters in these strips looks. I'd say you're best sacrificing that little detail for aesthetics. They look bad, and if you try stretching their arms and such to make them more proportional, it's probably just gonna look worse. Just leave the humans and elves and such the same size if you're going to go with a super-simplified style. It'll look less frightening. Please don't think I'm telling you to make them all look the same; I'm not. Just, the height thing is a lost cause. Oh, and having the first comic numbered eleven is going to cause readers to think that there are comics missing from your archives, assuming you plan to post and archive the final version. That will annoy them, and it's never good to annoy readers with the first comic. One more thing. There's a difference between "wordy" and "overly wordy." Your comic falls into the latter. You can use all the words you want, as long as you're actually saying something. Your comics... they don't say much. I think from the three, I got "Get up, goth chick" and "That guy is dead." Oh, and "Let's go to town." So, you're averaging a statement per page. This isn't acceptable from three long pages covered in text. And I've tired of this, so that's enough.

But, seriously, bubble layout. It got two paragraphs at the beginning for a reason. Work on it.

[Mirai Gen]

In his defense Phil, I think this is comic 11. Last time he came through it had totally different comics.

But other than that, yeah.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Leper Messiah TR

5. if I´m wordy (which I´m not), what about http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html

The thing about that is that with that page we're dealing with A main character whom the readers have been with for just short of 500 pages.
There's a rather large difference between the amount of people who will stop reading a comic on it's 490th page because they don't like how wordy it is, and people who will stop reading a comic on the 11th page because of the same complaint.

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

I mean at the very least your first comic will make people go, "Wait, what?" That was the point behind the completely awesome OOTS first comic - the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion joke was a great setup for any DND player and it got you interested real fast.

Don't forget that he threw in a penis joke for those who didn't play DnD.

[Mirai Gen]

Huh?

That wasn't in the first issue, and that was the 'hook' I was talking about.