Fate, Free Will, and Sarda being a jackass

[The Wizard Who Did It]

Originally Posted by Fifthfiend

What I'm getting at here is process is irrelevant because whatever the process is, that's self. If that's your brain taking in sensory input, gathering reactions from an assorted shit-ton of neurons and hormones and chemicals and whatever all else is in there variously representing instinct, appetites, needs, reflexes, consciousness, beliefs, morals, and whatever, then that's what self is. If the brain takes in sensory input, runs it through all that other shit the brain has chugging along in there, and then hands that off to the brain-pilot who does whatever it is he does with it and then comes to the same conclusion that is whatever thing I ultimately end up doing, then that's what self is.

What I'm getting at here is that I'm defining self as something which can make choices beyond physical and chemical laws, and by extension our choices are not by products of some ball of mass exploding trillions of years ago.

Because to me, there's no free will if what you do is the by product of concrete physical laws. It's almost exactly the same as mentioning that there's no free will if some God or whatever forces you to do some action.

Actually, I guess that's a decent example to my overall point. Let's say Aphrodite puts a spell on Medea to fall in love with Jason. Now whenever she has a choice to help Jason get the Golden Fleece or to not help him at all, there are certain processes that go on in her brain, and are indeed a part of her "self". However, those processes are being regulated by an outside force, specifically the spell put on Medea. Because of this spell, Medea decides to help Jason, leave her father, dice up her brother, and in the end gets royally screwed over.

Does she have free will? I say no, because even though the choices got passed by her self, there was some external force that had complete control over what decision she made. To me, the laws of physics are an external force to this choice-making system. You seem to disagree, and that's fine.

[Grognor]

Free will, as it is commonly defined, does imply random chance. Since "random" scientifically means "impossible by any means [even theoretical] to predict with 100% accuracy", and it is established that free will implies multiple possibilities, each of which has a chance of happening, it can be logically deduced that randomness factors into the concept of free will. Tacticslion, don't think this assumption means that I'm ignoring everything you said - merely disagreeing, and by extension agreeing with The Wizard up there.

He actually said everything I wanted to say by now, which is why I've said so little. I might have been able to put it better myself, to subvert the old saying, but it wouldn't have been easy.

[Mirai Gen]

I'm just curious at what point, exactly, does Onion Kid gain complete and utter control and knowledge over the universe to begin this quest of screwing himself over by putting White Mage in a pocket dimension and sending the LWs on a quest to kill his parents three times?

[Rejected Again]

Some time after he decided that he was not going to turn out like Sardia so he would study and discover a way to not become an omnipotent prick, thus becoming one against his will.

[The Wizard Who Did It]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

I'm just curious at what point, exactly, does Onion Kid gain complete and utter control and knowledge over the universe to begin this quest of screwing himself over by putting White Mage in a pocket dimension and sending the LWs on a quest to kill his parents three times?

Y'know... I have a slight feeling that maybe Sarda does die in this blast. Thus, the OK believes that all this crock and bull about Fate really is shit, and that his grown up self is just stupid. Then after he gains infinite power to try and set things right (because after all, Sarda was an idiot and fate doesn't exist), he turns into Sarda.

[Mirai Gen]

I don't buy the 'tries to not be Sarda and ends up being Sarda,' because if you are omnipotent with a nasty streak of revenge against the Light Warriors you don't just forget what the LWs (or White Mage for that matter) look like.

[The Wizard Who Did It]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

I don't buy the 'tries to not be Sarda and ends up being Sarda,' because if you are omnipotent with a nasty streak of revenge against the Light Warriors you don't just forget what the LWs (or White Mage for that matter) look like.

I've been wondering, has OK seen WM in any comic other than the ones in the double digits?

And he doesn't ever need to forget what the LWs look like.

Also, he doesn't start to really hate them until he's trapped while the universe is forming for billions of years (what with the hate turning into perfect clarity line).


It sounds like he had the intention of going back and making everything alright, met WM for the first time in AGES at the beginning of time, sits there for billions of years becoming spiteful toward the LWs, WM, and the world, then starts sending the LWs on nonsense quests to exact revenge, and then stupidly puts WM into an unknown pocket dimension, and then events continue until the current set of comics.

To me, I don't actually see him remembering WM all that distinctly before he goes back in time, what with the trauma being centered around BM and the other LWs. It should be noted that it's trauma, so his memory could have been fucking with him as to specific details.

[Mirai Gen]

And he doesn't ever need to forget what the LWs look like.

...Twiddy he can't plan on not being Sarda, go back to the beginning of the universe, stew on his hatred of the Light Warriors, then get the totally great idea of sending them on meaningless quests so he can humiliate and kill them. It just doesn't work.

That's like saying if I got up and ate breakfast and decided that I wanted to switch to soy milk, threw out all my milk, planned on a shopping trip to replace my food, then went and just bought regular milk anyway.

If, according to your theory, the entire point of his trip to the beginning of the universe was to try to be a good guy why would he then turn into Sarda and put all these events into motion and suddenly forget, oh shit, I'm becoming Sarda?

[The Wizard Who Did It]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

If, according to your theory, the entire point of his trip to the beginning of the universe was to try to be a good guy why would he then turn into Sarda and put all these events into motion and suddenly forget, oh shit, I'm becoming Sarda?

Because he had no magical power left to go anywhere once he was at the beginning of the universe. Once he was thwarted by himself (or more specifically WM), he was stuck. After that, he sat and stewed on all the shit that came to pass in his life, which probably made him very, VERY bitter and hateful.

There are two significant time periods, from what I see. The time before those billions of years, where he just tried to make the world a better place, and the time after. He became Sarda because during those billions of years he stopped caring about not becoming Sarda. All he cared to do was take his hatred out on the little shits that killed his parents and "started it all."*

To fit your example, he got up and ate breakfast and decided he wanted to switch to soy milk, threw out all of his milk, planned on a shopping trip to replace his food, got sidetracked for 10 years on an abandoned island, and then when he got back to civilization decided that he might as well get the goddamn milk.

*I mean, that's been his attitude in the comics. The LWs are saying "hey, it's actually you who caused your parents to be killed!" And his response is, "Yeah, I don't care, I'm going back to killing and torturing you evil shits."


EDIT: Oh hey, this comic is relevant as well: http://www.nuklearpower.com/2005/05/...story-of-time/

Sarda: "I'm hardly insane at all from the aeons of isolation and blind, seething rage."

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

I'm just curious at what point, exactly, does Onion Kid gain complete and utter control and knowledge over the universe to begin this quest of screwing himself over by putting White Mage in a pocket dimension and sending the LWs on a quest to kill his parents three times?

Probably after he becomes an adult and his anger has stewed for a few years while he studied to become Sage. Or gets empowered by the Orbs.

In a more immediate sense, after he gets sent away from the battle between Sarda and the Light Warriors.