The Order of the Stick Megathread - Page 20

Professor Smarmiarty · 07-23-2009, 01:31 PM

People don't go to war to lose. People don't play the lottery to lose.
It really is as simple as that.

chaospet · 07-23-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord

If you believe there is no afterlife then this life is all you get. Then shouldn't you be doing all you can to enjoy and extend it as much as possible? You are low on food, if you die thats it you stop existing, but you like existing, so you kill your neighbor and take his.

Your point only applies in cases where the choice is between going to war or dying. Obviously you're not really risking anything if you know you're going to die soon even if you don't go to war. My claim was about those cases in which you actually DO take a risk by going to war - which is the typical case, not the exception. In those cases, if you remove (or mitigate) the fear of death with the guarantee of an afterlife, then you remove a major motivational obstacle that might otherwise keep many from engaging in warfare.

Aerozord · 07-23-2009, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaospet

Your point only applies in cases where the choice is between going to war or dying. Obviously you're not really risking anything if you know you're going to die soon even if you don't go to war. My claim was about those cases in which you actually DO take a risk by going to war - which is the typical case, not the exception. In those cases, if you remove (or mitigate) the fear of death with the guarantee of an afterlife, then you remove a major motivational obstacle that might otherwise keep many from engaging in warfare.

in that case your personal morality and opinion doesn't matter. This is how war works in the real world

Leader: "We are going to war"
Soldier: "Why?"
Leader: "Because I said so"
Soldier: *sighs* "I'll get my gun"

War makes perfect sense as those that decide it aren't the ones risking their lives. A king does not go out on the front lines, he never risks his life. While the soldier, assuming he hasn't already been properly made into a drone, is filled with propoganda about how its best for his nation that he fights. Wars are not about one human killing another, they are about shot to kill ratios

chaospet · 07-23-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord

War makes perfect sense as those that decide it aren't the ones risking their lives. A king does not go out on the front lines, he never risks his life.

Fair point, though it is somewhat less applicable in nations (like ours) that have volunteer armies. And it's no coincidence that religion is so heavily pressed in the military (see the recent high profile cases of atheist soldiers and the sorts of discrimination they endured). It's a timeless strategy for obtaining and retaining soldiers - convince them that they're doing God's work, and so if they die in glorious combat they'll be assured a lovely spot in the afterlife.

Aerozord · 07-23-2009, 03:28 PM

most people do not join the military to go to war, most join because its garenteed work and will pay for college. Seriously do you think your average soldier enlists just so he can kill a complete stranger?

BitVyper · 07-23-2009, 05:44 PM

Since when are people even remotely rational, since this conversation seems to be assuming that?

Aerozord · 07-23-2009, 06:01 PM

no its assuming their chooses have a degree of subconsious reasoning behind it. Humans instinctually want their group to prosper, we are a social species, but like all animals we also want competition killed. Yes many use religion to motivate their soldiers, but if it wasn't that it would be something else. Freedom/oppression, justice/tyranny, good/evil. They will use propaganda to make their soldiers think they are in the right, their enemies are in the wrong, and the world is better with them dead. A human with a healthy mind is rational. Sane people dont just up and kill someone for no good reason. But there are reasons to kill. And lets be honest, most people are sheep that automatically side with the majority.

This is conditioned into soldiers. Battles are often won or lost by a soldiers willingness to blindly follow orders. In actual war soldiers do not decide who they kill, when, or why. They kill because they are told to, and deep down thats it. But the ones that decide it, do it logically, only the most twisted and fanatical military leader kills simply for the sake of killing

chaospet · 07-23-2009, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord

most people do not join the military to go to war, most join because its garenteed work and will pay for college. Seriously do you think your average soldier enlists just so he can kill a complete stranger?

Of course not, that would be a very silly claim to make. Let me be clear - I am not saying that religion is the reason people join the army or go to war. What I am saying is that religion helps REMOVE what would be for many people be a reason NOT to join the army or go to war.

Mirai Gen · 07-23-2009, 07:11 PM

So, is there a new comic yet?

Kim · 07-23-2009, 07:23 PM

Nope! Berlew decided that after putting all the work into a page where nothing interesting happens and that is, arguably, not especially good, at least when compared with his other recent work, that he deserved a two week break, apparently.

07-23-2009, 03:28 PM	#195
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	most people do not join the military to go to war, most join because its garenteed work and will pay for college. Seriously do you think your average soldier enlists just so he can kill a complete stranger? __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

07-23-2009, 05:44 PM	#196
BitVyper History's Strongest Dilettante Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Arcadia Posts: 6,662	Since when are people even remotely rational, since this conversation seems to be assuming that? __________________ "There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea is asleep, and the rivers dream. People made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on, Ace; we've got work to do!" Awesome art be here.

07-23-2009, 06:01 PM	#197
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	no its assuming their chooses have a degree of subconsious reasoning behind it. Humans instinctually want their group to prosper, we are a social species, but like all animals we also want competition killed. Yes many use religion to motivate their soldiers, but if it wasn't that it would be something else. Freedom/oppression, justice/tyranny, good/evil. They will use propaganda to make their soldiers think they are in the right, their enemies are in the wrong, and the world is better with them dead. A human with a healthy mind is rational. Sane people dont just up and kill someone for no good reason. But there are reasons to kill. And lets be honest, most people are sheep that automatically side with the majority. This is conditioned into soldiers. Battles are often won or lost by a soldiers willingness to blindly follow orders. In actual war soldiers do not decide who they kill, when, or why. They kill because they are told to, and deep down thats it. But the ones that decide it, do it logically, only the most twisted and fanatical military leader kills simply for the sake of killing __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

07-23-2009, 07:11 PM	#199
Mirai Gen We are Geth. Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 14,032	So, is there a new comic yet? __________________

07-23-2009, 07:23 PM	#200
Kim adorable Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 12,950	Nope! Berlew decided that after putting all the work into a page where nothing interesting happens and that is, arguably, not especially good, at least when compared with his other recent work, that he deserved a two week break, apparently. __________________ this post is about how to successfully H the Kimmy

07-23-2009, 01:31 PM	#191
Professor Smarmiarty Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: K-space Posts: 9,758	People don't go to war to lose. People don't play the lottery to lose. It really is as simple as that.