Boycott Atlus

[Kim]

In this thread, Jagos mistakes intersex with transgender, then responds to, "Atlus portrayed a trans man as not really being trans but trying to escape sexism," with, "I don't think Naoto is really trans, and was just trying to be accepted." (In this instance, being accepted means escaping sexism, as Naoto's complaints with not being accepted were due to institutional sexism.)

[Kim]

In this thread, Bells uses a sexist slur.

[stefan]

As I'm aware in the Japanese culture, there are women that use male proverbs for themselves and act more tomboyish without many of the problems.

As I'm aware this is a storytelling construct exclusive to modern japanese media that does not exist in real life and is only used as narrative shorthand. I could be wrong (never been to japan myself) but this is the way I've heard it.

Originally Posted by Liz

In this thread, Bells uses a sexist slur.

you know, I entirely agree with you on the general thrust of this whole thing, but seriously? a single-line post that disregards an entire goddamn essay to zero in on a single word?

cut that shit out.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Liz

In this thread, Bells uses a sexist slur.

I'll at least give Bells due credit for finding and quoting a well-written, articulate defense of Naoto's P4 portrayal.

(Mind you, that defense would have had a lot more weight if not for that goddamn disgusting alternate outfit P4: Golden's adding, and Naoto's female identity in the pseudo-canon comic.)

I actually look forward to your response to that response to your blog post, Liz. It seems like an actual chance to initiate a real nuanced, reasonable discussion on the matter.

Originally Posted by stefan

you know, I entirely agree with you on the general thrust of this whole thing, but seriously? a single-line post that disregards an entire goddamn essay to zero in on a single word?

cut that shit out.

...Yeah, except Bells didn't even write the essay, therefore responding to Bells' sexist comment is actually in some respects a more legitimate reflection of Bells' own opinion and attitude than someone else's words that he copied and pasted.

[Marc v4.0]

really gotta love those "I stopped following and I'm just going to drop my thoughts on the thread and then bugger straight off to avoid any repercussions my post may bring, including but not limited to actually having to engage the topic and its supporters seriously" posts.

Even if the post has substance and weight, you basically start by demeaning the entire thread and then end by announcing you're just going to drop your view in the mail slot and continue ignoring it after that.

[Fenris]

stefan, you're welcome to stop backseat moderating/telling people what they are allowed to post at any point now.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...Yeah, except Bells didn't even write the essay, therefore responding to Bells' sexist comment is actually in some respects a more legitimate reflection of Bells' own opinion and attitude than someone else's words that he copied and pasted.

never said Bells wrote the essay, only that Liz disregarded it entirely in favor of focusing specifically on use of a single offensive word. Its rather dangerously close to adhom.

Originally Posted by Fenris

stefan, you're welcome to stop backseat moderating/telling people what they are allowed to post at any point now.

I'm not attempting to backseat mod or anything here, just expressing an opinion, but whatevs.

[PCD]

I've been debating if I should put my two cents in here from the start, but hell, I'll just bite the bullet and bring up a few more points:

Even if you believe that Naoto isn't a transgender man, and really is just struggling to get ahead in a male-dominated society, that doesn't change the fact that her character storyline is painfully, grossly mishandled. The instant the other characters discover she's a woman, they start treating her as though she shouldn't be left alone, like she needs an escort and to be protected--this wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, since she did just go through the harrowing TV experience, if they didn't keep saying things like "Listen here, missy," and "You're a girl, after all." In other words, totally justifying the idea that she can't be taken seriously as a woman. Also, the only way to romance her is to encourage her to be more feminine. Because no one wants to date a girl who behaves in a masculine manner, or prefers androgyny. You must embrace femininity and wear schoolgirl uniforms to be desirable! In other words, even if you want to ignore all the transphobia present, I'd say it's pretty undeniable that Naoto's treatment feels pretty fucking sexist.

I also kind of can't believe no one brought up the disaster of the "Miss" Yasogami Pageant as an example. That was uncomfortable for reasons entirely separate from what Atlus intended.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by stefan

never said Bells wrote the essay, only that Liz disregarded it entirely in favor of focusing specifically on use of a single offensive word. Its rather dangerously close to adhom.

...Maybe Bells shouldn't use the offensive word, then?
And in what way is Liz showing Bells any less respect than Bells has already shown all of us? The well-reasoned arguments in the part he copied and pasted aside, Bells' post was essentially him making a bunch of snarky, exaggerated comments about how terrible everyone here is for daring to care enough about transphobia / homophobia issues to express being offended when someone says something offensive.

Guess what: You can't say something offensive and then flip the fuck out when everyone responds to your offensive comment poorly. Instead of having a hissy fit over daring to receive negative feedback Bells should ask himself questions like "Why might using this word in this context upset people?" or "Why might this argument I'm making strike others as dismissive or insensitive?"

EDIT: And Bells sure as heck shouldn't passive-aggressively declare pride in ignoring the discussion, as that only insinuates complete disrespect for others he presumes to engage in his (presumably one-sided, as he won't even listen to 'our side') arguments with.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

I'll at least give Bells due credit for finding and quoting a well-written, articulate defense of Naoto's P4 portrayal.

(Mind you, that defense would have had a lot more weight if not for that goddamn disgusting alternate outfit P4: Golden's adding, and Naoto's female identity in the pseudo-canon comic.)

I actually look forward to your response to that response to your blog post, Liz. It seems like an actual chance to initiate a real nuanced, reasonable discussion on the matter.

Creators are fully in control of their depictions of characters, the thoughts of the characters, etc. Characters aren't living entities in and of themselves. Regardless of anything else, Atlus created a character who presents as male for a substantial amount of the story, then uses the same rhetoric as transphobes to say, "Naoto isn't really trans. Naoto is just trying to escape sexism." The created the character and the circumstances that led to that moral, and portrayed gender reassignment surgery as a mad scientist experiment. Regardless of their character reasons for doing so, they still created the character in such a way as to use that metaphor. For many trans people, gender reassignment surgery can be a necessary part of feeling comfortable in their own bodies. Depicting that as some horrible, gruesome thing is hurtful to those people. Beyond that, the player is allowed to abuse Naoto's attraction to them to push him to be more feminine, even though it is clear he's not comfortable with presenting as such. Other elements about Naoto's "femininity" are mishandled throughout the game. Last but not least, content added to the game's universe after the fact goes even further in sexualizing Naoto as a woman and pushing the character to be more feminine.

I don't think there are any circumstances or explanations that excuse these facts. Even if you do not consider Naoto a trans man, it is plainly obvious that there are transphobic elements and themes present in the character's story.

...Yeah, except Bells didn't even write the essay, therefore responding to Bells' sexist comment is actually in some respects a more legitimate reflection of Bells' own opinion and attitude than someone else's words that he copied and pasted.

Bells refused to even say what his opinion of the essay was. Why do I owe him a detailed analysis of why that essay doesn't matter when he refuses to take any stance and says he's not going to participate further regardless?

In such a situation, calling out a sexist slur as being a sexist slur is a far more valuable use of my time than treating his post as anything of merit.