Pokemon Umbral Discussion 30: Less and Less About Pokemon Each Day

[Astral Harmony]

I just felt I should elaborate on this:

The way I see it, there's two types of death in RPGs. There's the simple 0 HP death way and there's the actual permanent way.

The difference? When Cloud loses all of his HP, just use a Phoenix Down or cast Life.

When Aerith was stabbed by Sephiroth? Yeah, that's the permanent death. When Tellah exhausted all of his life in an attempt to defeat Golbez with Meteor when he didn't have the MP required to do so? Yes, that's the permanent death. When Lucifer Caprico, Rayleen's fiancee, got crushed by a falling Bastiodon? Indeed, that's a permanent death.

I guess to put it bluntly, Pokemon go rogue both to protect the remaining life of their master (if he's simply reduced to 0 HP) or to avenge his death (if he's actually dead).

[Geminex]

Alllrighty...
See, I'm still not quite happy about that. Not at all.

BUT!

I'm not simply going to use these fancy "arguments" or "words" to persuade you that I'm right. They would be ineffective and you would continue being very very mean to me.

No, see, starting next turn I'm going to provide proof, by abusing the hell out of your decision, until you rescind it. You will rue the day, my friend. RUE THE DAAAAY!

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

And so what if there's a huge gap between Ginnungagap's name and what it actually is? It's a badass name! Certainly a lot better than Aria.

That...

Aria isn't meant to be badass!

What would you have nicknamed her, hmm? Deathstroke, the Destroyer of Universes?

Originally Posted by Geminex

I'm not simply going to use these fancy "arguments" or "words" to persuade you that I'm right. They would be ineffective and you would continue being very very mean to me.

That implies that your arguments were actually good, instead of just "fancy".

Originally Posted by Geminex

No, see, starting next turn I'm going to provide proof, by abusing the hell out of your decision, until you rescind it. You will rue the day, my friend. RUE THE DAAAAY!

Just hurry up and post.

[Geminex]

That implies that your arguments were actually good, instead of just "fancy".

Oh come on. My arguments were:
1: It does not make sense for a mechanic that was introduced to prevent cheating should come into play in non-plot-related combat
2: If it does come into combat, it will make combat/trainer dual classes drastically overpowered, since the "combat" aspect of the dual-class will be practically invulnerable until at least two or three of their pokemon are down. The ability to revive pokemon compounds this.
3: In-game, there should be a distinction between "unable to fight and dying" (0 HP) and "dead". Apparently there is this such a distinction, but pokemon will already go rouge once their trainers reach 0 HP, despite the implications of the phrase "going rogue".

And they're all completely coherent and logical.

But y'know what? I said I'd prove to AB that we should do things my way. And I will. But I'm upping my bet, I'm not going to limit myselves to AB. All of you, or at least the trainers amongst you, are going to agree with me.

Cause see, it might seem cool.
You might be going: "Oh, awesome, enemies aren't going to attack me, because otherwise my pokemon will go rogue. I can play offensively with impunity!"

You should be going: "Ohfuckohfuckohfuck don't let enemies attack me or otherwise my pokemon will go rogue. I have to play defensively or I'm screwed."
Cause see, when your pokemon go rogue, that's not just a fancy word meaning that they all get to enter battle at once. It means two things:
First, you no longer have control over them. AB posted what a rogue pokemon's moveset is gonna look like, and that's what's going to happen. Inefficient, yes. But those're the consequences. And even if your characters get revived, they no longer have control over their pokemon! Cause "rogue" means "masterless".

And that brings me to my second point: Your pokemon can die. Your characters' well-trained pokemon? The ones with the custom items and custom movesets? Without a master, they don't have pokeball-protection. That that means, they take fatal damage. And once they take fatal damage, whelp. There goes your Metagross. And your Tyranitar, don't you hate that quadruple weakness. And that Enmakki, pity it only survived two missions.

Yeah, Impact's first kill was a pokemerc. Ground/Dragon type, not sure what its name was. Two hits with the LH launcher, shattered into a million pieces, Impact loved that. Picture that happening to all your legendaries, one after the other, mission after mission. But not to worry! You have that Starmie, don't you? Bet it's itching for a chance at the action.
And Renny can probably borrow pokemon from his parents (if he ever gets that pokebrid-level), though that'll introduce the chance of Snorlax dying. Score! Make sure to do that.

Anyway, you get my point. Going rogue is good in a short-term way, but very, very bad in a long-term way, since your characters are going to get 0-HPed sooner or later, and that means all their 0-HP pokemon are dead. So you should be supporting me, I think.

Unless AB pulls a massive Dick-Move and says none of that applies to PCs, in which case replace all of the above with endlessly-repeated "FUCKYOUABFUCKYOUABFUCKYOUAB".

Ok, see, I meant for this post to be three lines. I hate it when I get gloating. I can never stop myself.

[Dracorion]

Yes, of course, that's the whole goddamn point! See, that is exactly why it's not broken!

My God, man, how thick are you?

Originally Posted by Geminex

And they're all completely coherent and logical.

That doesn't necessarily mean good.

Originally Posted by Geminex

You should be going: "Ohfuckohfuckohfuck don't let enemies attack me or otherwise my pokemon will go rogue. I have to play defensively or I'm screwed."
Cause see, when your pokemon go rogue, that's not just a fancy word meaning that they all get to enter battle at once. It means two things:
First, you no longer have control over them. AB posted what a rogue pokemon's moveset is gonna look like, and that's what's going to happen. Inefficient, yes. But those're the consequences. And even if your characters get revived, they no longer have control over their pokemon! Cause "rogue" means "masterless".

Oh, you can always throw more pokeballs at 'em after you're revived. I can't see they'd complain, I mean, they were your partners like three seconds ago.

Originally Posted by Geminex

And that brings me to my second point: Your pokemon can die. Your characters' well-trained pokemon? The ones with the custom items and custom movesets? Without a master, they don't have pokeball-protection. That that means, they take fatal damage. And once they take fatal damage, whelp. There goes your Metagross. And your Tyranitar, don't you hate that quadruple weakness. And that Enmakki, pity it only survived two missions.

Yes. That is exactly why none of us will be going suicidal. If only because Slayers and Pokebrids are better overall fighters than regular pokemon, and that involves staying alive. Plus, you know, neither Renny nor Pierce would suicide and let their pokemon go rogue, ever. Because, yeah, they might die.

Hell, I don't think even Charlotte would do that.

Besides, the distinction between "zero HP" and "dead" should also apply to pokemon, no? Though probably less rigorously.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Anyway, you get my point. Going rogue is good in a short-term way, but very, very bad in a long-term way, since your characters are going to get 0-HPed sooner or later, and that means all their 0-HP pokemon are dead. So you should be supporting me, I think.

Technically, our pokemon are only dead if they die after going rogue. Which they don't necessarily have to, unless you want to be a dick about it and let them die.

By the way? I totally pity you.

[Geminex]

Hey, I insult your intelligence, not vice versa. What is this, opposite day?

And you're right, I should be doing better things with my time. So I'll just say that the fact that the system has two extremes really doesn't make it any better, since they don't cancel each other out. At all. It's "Overpowered in the long term, Game-Over in the short term". It's fucked both ways. I didn't think you'd like that, but fine.

unless you want to be a dick about it and let them die.

Wow! You think? When did you catch on?

And now let us finish this discussion, I stand by what I've said. I shall prove my points in-game. And I've made my post, excuse the absence of easy-to-misunderstand speech.

[Dracorion]

Yeah, well, clearly the answer is for Battle Masters and Legion Mages to be completely anal about defense!

I'll go catch a Mollesk and Renny can give Pierce some pointers.

[Geminex]

...
What?
Seriously, what?

The solution is for getting to 0 HP not to have any far-reaching consequences. Neither hugely positive, nor hugely negative. That will motivate neither extremely agressive play (when we're really desparate in the short term and need someone to go rogue to save our party), or extremely defensive play (all other times cause fuck you don't want to lose a pokemon).

Edit:
And one thing. You will edit that post. Pierce will give no orders, Imact's speech is sufficiently clear. Or else by god I will fuck you over to an unimaginable degree. I am entirely serious.

[Dracorion]

Yeah, I just knew that would get a rise out of you.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure Renny will still be anal about defense and Charlotte will still always be thinking about her best interests.

And me, well, I don't think it'll affect me.

But hey, if it seems like I'm being a little too suicidal (moreso than usual), feel free to call me out on it.

EDIT: Oh come on. You already knew I was going to do that. I told you I was going to do that! Well, maybe not the "giving orders" part, but it was implied! I mean, someone's gotta do it, and it can't be Impact.

Oh, I am extremely happy right now.

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

I just felt I should elaborate on this:

The way I see it, there's two types of death in RPGs. There's the simple 0 HP death way and there's the actual permanent way.

The difference? When Cloud loses all of his HP, just use a Phoenix Down or cast Life.

When Aerith was stabbed by Sephiroth? Yeah, that's the permanent death. When Tellah exhausted all of his life in an attempt to defeat Golbez with Meteor when he didn't have the MP required to do so? Yes, that's the permanent death. When Lucifer Caprico, Rayleen's fiancee, got crushed by a falling Bastiodon? Indeed, that's a permanent death.

What about Galuf in FF5? He went down to 0 hitpoints and kept on fighting despite getting hit by Fire 3, Ice 3, Lightning 3, Flare, and Meteo even if he was severely underleveled and naked! All to save his darling granddaughter he only recently remembered he had and his other friends. Ah, the power of love!

Then he died... ^^; Not even Phoenix Down spamming could work.
"I dunno why I can't revive him! I used everything I could!"
"You ever used Ether, and those don't do shit for his health!"

If Pierce or Impact wanted to go out with a bang, I suppose they could do that, and cheat out all damage for the remainder of the battle. And then snuff it. =3

I dunno why you think I'm anal about defense. ^^; I favor it quite a bit, but as you noticed before, I favored powerful offense too as you probably noticed with several MASSIVE arguments stemming from my attempt to go offensive (Belly Drum and Psych Up along with Baton Pass).

But it's true that Renny is the defense specialist out of the PCs. Many strong defense pokemon (although most of them are high up in offense too), pretty balanced element grouping for his team, a mass shielding technique and a mass support technique.