The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Bob The Mercenary]

On the topic of love, I'd like to quote Twiddy who was quoting Angels and Demons:

TheWizWhoDidIt (9:25:34 PM): Wise Guy Priest Thing: Do you love your child?
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:25:39 PM): "Yes."
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:14 PM): "Do you want to keep him from harm?"
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:16 PM): "Yes."
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:25 PM): "Would you let him skateboard?"
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:29 PM): "... Yes."
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:35 PM): "Even though he would be hurt?"
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:37 PM): "Yes."
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:39 PM): "Why?"
TheWizWhoDidIt (9:26:45 PM): "Because we learn from our pain."

Don't know if that'll do anything for anyone, I just liked the quote.

And ZAK, I've looked at it through someone else's perspective, and I still found mine as more convincing. I do agree that everyone participating should be as openminded as possible, but sometimes that just doesn't do the trick.

[42PETUNIAS]

Because we learn from our pain.

Still, that doesn't justify damning up the kid next door because he didn't come over and join your family.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Well, why should God give anyone this gift if they don't even believe he exists?

[ZAKtheGeek]

Really, I'm just pointing out the merits of my position. I suppose I shouldn't expect you to actually be convinced...

Well, why should God give anyone this gift if they don't even believe he exists?

Because he loves all.

But, see, look at this. You can't ask for a logical answer involving God if God has its own unknowable uberlogic.

[Darth SS]

...Sweet merciful grapefruit in the sky...

Okay, there's a lot I wanted to jump in on, but I felt that these were the best.

Originally Posted by POS

See, there's (A) believing in something, and there's (B) being part of an organized religion. Now, it's nigh impossible to have B without A, but very easy to have A without B, and much more pleasant.

Like hell it is. I'd say it's far more common to have people who go to church simply because it's A) Familiar, B) Saves them from ostracizing, and C) It helps them ignore the fact that they spend the whole week doing "bad" things.

Originally Posted by Loki the Fallen

Science will always find a way to explain things. But who set the rules? Who caused this all to happen this way? The statistics of the universe working out so that life could exist, or that the current universe could exist the way it does are astronomical.

Statistics can explain that.

The law of large numbers states that if you do something a whole bunch of times, and I mean an incredibly large number of times, that the probabilities will be right. So you have quadrillions of universes forming. Only one of these universes doesn't collapse on itself. Inside that universe, you have an equally large number of random events happening. You then have a really long time. Over this really long time, you have quadrillions of events. Maybe a thousand of them start chains that would lead to the creation of earths. Only one (or five if there really are other "earths" out there) makes it all the way through. Then, on that earth, you have a very large number of events. Lots of math later, you get humans, etc.

It's certainly unprobable, but not unlikely, a distinction which few make.

Originally Posted by Locke

Acts of kindness that truly stem from religion, indeed, are the most morally deceitful, because they do not originate from some independent and personal wish to be altruistic, but a desire to either a) follow the tenets of one's faith/please god b) give religion a good name c) not go to hell. None of these involves selflessness.

You know, it's okay to quote me. I made this statement way earlier.

Not mad at you or anything, but I want to see at least one of my quotes shown in a positive light.

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary

And how come anyone omnipotent can't be angry? You can know something bad is going to happen and be angry or sad all the same. But, it also says that we were created in God's image. Meaning he shares the same set of moods as we do, love, hate, sadness, etc...

Because those are "bad" emotions. And God is supposed to be the epitome of "good."

Of course, there can be righteous anger and such. Let's suppose that he gets mad. Well, when people get mad, they lash out. But wait, we're still here. Why is that? Well, of course you say that "He's perfect, so he can control Himself."

But would something perfect have gotten angry in the first place?

Originally Posted by B_Real_Shadows

The same could be said about your "blatant series of assumptions" that God isn't omnipotent or omniscient or all loving. As far as I'm concerned, If God wasn't all Loving, there wouldn't be a purgatory, nor would there be a means for us to have our sins absolved, and Jesus wouldn't have happened. If God wasn't Omnipotent there wouldn't be a virgin Mary, parting of the sea, the plagues, passover, again Jesus. If God wasn't Omniscient, then there would be no prophets or scriptures fortelling of the comming of Christ.

You prove to me that all of those and the detail that the Church preaches about them aren't all just a blatent series of assumptions, and I'll acknowledge that this kind of statement has any kind of merit.



Now two birds with one stone.

Originally Posted by Mesden

So, it's okay for God to allow and inflict suffering because God is God?

Originally Posted by Nique

Aren't these comflicting belifes though? I mean, if you belive in a creator, it stands to reason that his standards are actually natural or inherient to some goal?

Any kind of standards or rules that "God" makes are ultimately entirely arbitrary and random.

He says "killing's wrong." Well, why is it wrong. Well, because He says so. If His decision about what's right IS what's right, then what's right is entirely arbitrary.

Originally Posted by Marinan

Perhaps, but I think that there is something a bit more people need to understand. You see, Faith is a form of understanding. In these modern times, many and such would have you falsely take it for fact that faith is not a form of reason, but for thousands of years it has been, and it always will be, even if you can't learn math from it, its actually better than a robotic logic that will only lead to the next theorem. Although, one could argue that they are two sides of the same coin. Perhaps they are only as good as each other. The real point is that one's reason that God is God is their reason, your reason is your Reason. Understand?

But it isn't a form of reason!

The entire basis of faith is treating something as true without any kind of evidence!

This entire concept of "everything was created by some great benevolent being beyond our reality who loves us unquestionably and the reason we can't understand His contradictions is because we aren't the same kind of being," is COMPLETELY unreasonable! It has no foundation in any kind of fact! Simply saying "I don't know how the world began," or "We have a pretty good, but uncomplete guess at how the world began," is infinitely more grounded in fact!

It's downright insane!

And that's why it's faith!

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

Religion hurts people, to be sure, but it helps a whole lot of people as well. My church, for instance, built a school for orphans in Haiti and currently funds the facility in materials, food, and training for teachers. My church also runs a drop in center on weekends so homeless people and troubled teens have a roof over their heads, food to eat, and games to play.

Where I take issue with that is that a lot of those facilities are ones that say, "Sure, I'll help you. But while you're here, let's teach you about God!" There are far too many centres whose aid invariably comes with them pushing their religion on you. How is it any different than luring children into your van with candy so you can teach them "how to accept their sexuality."

Yes, I just compared religion with pedophilia. I'm very sorry about that, but it was sadly the best comparison I could think of.



I'm slowly beginning to think that my five groups of people should be in bold, and taken with other informations and put in a section called "Stuff we've estalibshed, and other ground rules."



Finally, I think we can all use the words of a Doctor Gregory House to understand this a bit more.

Originally Posted by House

You know I get it if people are just looking for a way to fill the holes. But they want the holes, they want to live in the holes. And they go nuts when somebody else pours dirt in their holes. Climb out of your holes, people!

EDIT- Oh, come on. In the time it took me to write that, another page was made!

[P-Sleazy]

To Mesden:
Except Moses told the Pharoah what would happen if he didn't let the Jews go.

And if you call listening to that little voice in your head, what some may call a conscience, then yes, God does toy with us. Otherwise, I fail to see how God meddles.

Again, about the heaven and hell thing and who goes.

Originally Posted by Mesden

Actually, I'm fairly sure that The Bible says you get to go to hell if you don't accept God and Jesus.

The bible also says that God is an understanding God.

If you're introduced to God and Jesus and you take an interest in it, start to beleive in them and acknowledge them and suddenly reject them, then yes, your statement might be true that you go straight to hell. The bible says alot of things, and many things that can directly contradict eachother. You just have to learn how to work out a way that both statements can work out. This too is one of the things that was explained to me. And its how I accept it.

Theres also a human factor to faith. Reading a bible alone won't enlighten you on all matters of any one faith. You have to talk to someone whom you trust and more knowledgeable on said subject(faith) in question. A forum can only do so much.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Oh snap, it's House vs. God. I was gonna quote that. Here, let me do it right:
"You know I get it if people are just looking for a way to fill the holes. But they want the holes, they want to live in the holes. And they go nuts when somebody else pours dirt in their holes. Climb out of your holes, people!"

I've got more from that episode, if anyone wants. <_<

[Darth SS]

Thank you for that, it has been duly editted.

Except Moses told the Pharoah what would happen if he didn't let the Jews go.

And if you call listening to that little voice in your head, what some may call a conscience, then yes, God does toy with us. Otherwise, I fail to see how God meddles.

Prove it happened.


Also, if the bible's right, doesn't Jesus bringing people back from the dead qualify as meddling?

[Bob The Mercenary]

Yeah, he loves all, that's why he gives everyone a chance to come to him before they die.

And in response to everyone who will inevitably ask "what about those people in third world countries who were just never brought up or otherwise able to hear the scripture?" I give you:

Deuteronomy 5:9
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.

And again about the whole damnation thing. It goes on to say that God is slow to anger and quick to forgive.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

When it comes to religious discussion, the most logical oriented person fails at logic and it inevitably falls into the 'gut feeling' to whether or not you believe.

As a molecular biologist, you should know that 'gut feelings' are never good enough. Would you splice the genes of a marmoset with a frog on a 'gut feeling' that it may cure cancer? Or would you actually study it, do research, and find out whether or not there is any evidence that it would? And if it didn't have evidence would you go ahead and do it anyway?

That's what faith is. Shooting in the dark. Acting without knowledge, logic, or evidence.

No offense krylo, but thats a load of malarky. The same thing can be said of alcohol. At this very moment, somebody (many people) are suffering due to the existance of alcohol. Yet its the best disinfectant, a major chemical for use in science, a renewable and potentially cheap source of fuel, and is responsible for that wonderful smell in freshly baked bread.

Illegitimate Analogy logical fallacy. Alcohol is nothing like religion.

Alcohol: Is a physical item and not an idealogy. The differences are so vast I can't even begin to point them all out. One's a drug, one is a thought.

I suppose they are similiar in that when ingested they both have severely detrimental effects on the intelligence and thinking capabilities of the consumer. And that they are both poisons that are quite effective in killing off life forms of weaker physical and/or mental capability. And, really, most of their best applications are in reactions which lead to a change of states so radical that neither can be defined as they were before, or, in layman's terms, their destruction. So you kinda have me there.

Religion hurts people, to be sure, but it helps a whole lot of people as well. My church, for instance, built a school for orphans in Haiti and currently funds the facility in materials, food, and training for teachers. My church also runs a drop in center on weekends so homeless people and troubled teens have a roof over their heads, food to eat, and games to play.

And while you're all doing that members of the Westboro Baptist Church are tying homosexuals to the back ends of their trucks and dragging them down dirt roads.

As I said, it is as much a source of strife and hate as it is of love and comfort. Nothing you said has disproven that. You have only proven that it can be connected to positive things.

However, I can prove not only connection but direct liability for TERRIBLE things.

For instance: I have a motive to send money to starving orphans in Haiti without religion, as that I'm a human being, and all human beings deserve respect. I need no god to tell me that this is the right course of action.

Further, there is the Red Cross, Child's Play, Planned Parenthood, and thousands of other non-profit volunteer organizations working to alleviate the pressures on the poor and downtrodden who have absolutely no connection to religion.

On the other hand, let us look at the current downtrodden group in the world. The current equal right's struggle. Today's civil rights movement.

Where is the main justification that people get to hurt, maim, kill, and deny the rights of homosexuals? The holy bible.

Let's go back in time now and look at the world BEFORE the advent of Christianity in Rome, when homo and bisexuality were perfectly accepted. Where homosexuality did not incur violence.

Religion is not only CONNECTED to violence against homosexuals. It is LIABLE FOR IT. It is the CAUSE of it.

Much as religion is the CAUSE of inventions such as the pear of pain, which is a device, shaped roughly like a pear, which was inserted into a woman's vagina whereupon a crank was turned. As this crank was turned the 'pear' would open and slowly rip the woman apart on the inside. What was it created for? Heresay examinations and witch trials. Who made it? The church.

Or how about the spider? Which is, really, just a pair of sharpened tongs, but with eight 'legs' used for grasping. This was heated until it was red-hot and used for the same reasons, was created by the same people, and used at the same time... to grab a person's nipple and tear it off.

Great that your religion helped some haitian kids who had fallen through the cracks, but that does not change the fact that your religion has also destroyed lives, is destroying lives, and will continue to destroy lives.

People get changed for the better because of faith in God.

No. People get changed because of faith in God. Some for the better, most for the worst. The worst is usually not so great a change as those listed above, but, honestly, it's easier to make points with heavy hitters than things such as social ostracization. Which, is, yes, a very real and terrible problem related to the religious as a whole.

It may seem harmless, but in reality it ruins lives just as sure as a bullet. It simply does its work slower and more painfully. People are psychologically scarred both by their religion, and by being of a different religion. I have talked to many people from religious families who have been driven to tears, told that they are hated, and that they are going to hell simply because of their parent's beliefs. I have seen people struggle to keep up with the unnatural and unattainable ideals of the church and FALL APART AT THE SEAMS.

It's also been done in a study that people of faith tend to cope with stress and problems and maintain happiness better than people without faith. Maybe thats purely psychological, or maybe its because once you've experienced God and you realize things about it you have a certainty and a knowing beyond what others can understand. Its impossible to explain, but when you simply know you're right, life is a lot easier to live.

And that right there is the problem.

You KNOW you're right. You are unwilling to accept that you could be wrong, and that might make YOU happier, but it makes life a hell of a lot harder on everyone around you who can't live up to the standards of your religion--either because they hold a different faith or because they are too 'weak of will' to deny their natural urges.

And as for the whole "annoying proselytizing" thing, if you felt for sure that you knew the truth, wouldn't you want everyone else to know as well? I don't know anybody on this forum, but I wouldn't wish hell on any of you. In fact, I think most of you are decent people. So if I knew for sure that I knew the secret to heaven, what kind of horrible person would I be if I didn't want as many people as possible to join me? So yeah, its not about 'I'm right, you're wrong'. It's about 'I care for you and I want you to be happy'. I'm confused as to why people get offended about that... you should consider it a compliment.

And that's the problem.

Look at it from the other person's point of view.

THEY know that THEY'RE right. They know that THEY have the secret to heaven, or bliss, or what the fuck ever. To them you are nothing more than a tempter attempting to lead them away from their religion.

As a person who falls halfway between athiest and agnostic, I honestly am not bothered by people attempting to get me to join their faith too much. I mostly just feel bad for them because of the way other people of other faiths treat them.

However, I can also understand why someone of another faith would treat them that way.

Both sides KNOW that THEY have the secret to heaven, so when one attempts to convert the other it is not just an attack on their preconceived worldview (which is, honestly, going to cause enough problems as is), but also someone else trying to tear them away from eternal happiness.

Well, why should God give anyone this gift if they don't even believe he exists?

Gift? What?

The problem isn't NOT letting people into heaven.

It's sending people to burn in a lake of fire because they didn't believe he exists, when he gives them no proof.

There are, literally, hundreds of active religions in the world right now, thousands if we want to count all the different denominations of christianity (many of which claim that by following another denomination of christianity you're going to hell anyway).

There's no REASON to believe that God exists over Vishnu, or Buddha, or Zeus, or Thor, or Allah, or The Eternal Tao, or any other deity. The bible is no more accurate in history than any other holy book. It is no more morally correct than any other holy book. It is no less ambiguous than any other holy book. If anything it LESS accurate, LESS morally correct, and MORE ambiguous.

Accurate/Ambiguous: Just for STARTERS, there's how many different translations of the bible? Only one of them can be correct. Oh and how about that crazy hebrew language? Here's a fun fact, there's no word in hebrew for eternal or eternity. The word used to describe either eternity in heaven OR hell, actually means 'a time'. Let's take it a bit further, the hebrew word for hell is Gehenna. Gehenna is a small valley north of mesopotamia, where the jewish people threw their garbage to burn. They also threw the bodies of their criminals there, and, as that human fat is a complex carbon chain, it burns slow and never goes out. Thus you spend a time in the ever burning fires of the valley of gehenna if you were a sinner. This is a LITERAL phrase in the old testament. Not spiritual.

Morally correct:
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear. -- Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it. -- Proverbs 30:17

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. -- 2 Kings 2:23-24

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

Do I really need to go on?

Why SHOULD people believe in God? And why should he punish those who do not when he has given us no proof of his existence?

Originally Posted by Lady Cygnet

And after Satan finally gave up, God gave Job twice as much as what Satan took away from him, except for the children--he had 10 children before, and he had 10 children again. (reference)

I'm sorry, but no.

Killing some guy's wives and then giving him twice as much pussy as he had before is NOT an equal trade, nor does he come out on top. There is no equivalent exchange for a human life. There is no replacement for the women and children that Job lost.

If someone came into your house and killed your entire family and then was like, "But no, it's TOTALLY alright, because, like, I got you TWO NEW FAMILIES!" how would you feel?

Especially if the whole thing was some stupid bet?