Pokemon Umbral Discussion 14: Discussion Thread Player Character Conspiracy #1

[Bard The 5th LW]

Look, here is one simple way to end that exploitation. Its not up to me, but it can be stopped easily in just a few words. Just point it out to AB and try to logically validate your complaints in one easy-to-read paragraps. Preferably over PM. If it tuns out well, here's what you'll get.

AB:K, Menarker, stop exploiting.

That alone should end it all. Or alternatively, you can verbally duke it out with Menarker himself via PM. If it works out, here's what you'll get.

Menarker: K, I'll stop exploiting.

Just stop cluttering with your novel's worth of paragraphs. Pritty pleeze.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Geminex

How is it cynical? Menarker's using it already, and if AB, true to his word, continues to let him do that, there's literally nothing preventing him from increasing its usage. If he made some sort of guarantee that he'd limit his abuse, I might even be happy with that, but so far all he's done is point out the amount of counters that're available.

But honestly, give me an hour with bulbapedia and I'll eliminate those counters. Hell, I've already thought of a few things in the time I was typing this and some of them don't even need psych-up that much. It's all a matter of stats and movesets, and this system is broken. What I'm saying is that it needs to be balanced a little better, and that that should begin with making it impossible to hugely buff your entire team with little effort.

And if the sigh annoys you, I could totally try hissing. Or writing with a fake accent.

Fair enough.

HEY MENARKER, DON'T ABUSE THAT SHIT OR I'MMA GET YOU.

Seriously.

I don't remember anyone sayin' the system wasn't broken.

Unless you wanna take up the task of balancing every little issue by yourself, we're gonna have to deal with 'em as we go along. Yes, it should start with making it impossible to buff your team to hell. Hello?

Originally Posted by Dracorion

I think Baton Pass shouldn't work for other people's pokemon. Like, say Dormond is a Legion Mage. He uses Baton Pass switch with one of his pokemon and pass his boost to it. But he can't do the same with Renny's Togekiss.

Alternately, make it so that Pokemon switched with Baton Pass stay switched in/out for the duration of the turn. So, using your example, you could buff Mollesk into a godling, but in the time it takes you to do that you probably could've ended the battle or come pretty close.

What you've come up with is making Psych Up target only foes. Which neither Menarker and I agree with.

But we did both agree with self-inflicted damage only being item-healable the turn after it's inflicted.

Originally Posted by BardTheFifthLightWarrior

Just stop cluttering with your novel's worth of paragraphs. Pritty pleeze.

Hey, I remember saying this before! Well, not exactly like that, but I said it.

Then I got sucked in. It's like a freaking black hole.

[DanteFalcon]

And that is why I don't post often in discussion threads. It lets me avoid black holes that are walls of text.

[Bard The 5th LW]

GAHH! I had a really cool post written out! It had a rant song and everything! Then backspace came along for like no reason and sent me a page back!

I'm so furious you can presume I'm typing in a British accent.

I'll rewrite it tomorrow. G'Night.

[Geminex]

I think Baton Pass shouldn't work for other people's pokemon. Like, say Dormond is a Legion Mage. He uses Baton Pass switch with one of his pokemon and pass his boost to it. But he can't do the same with Renny's Togekiss.

Alternately, make it so that Pokemon switched with Baton Pass stay switched in/out for the duration of the turn. So, using your example, you could buff Mollesk into a godling, but in the time it takes you to do that you probably could've ended the battle or come pretty close.

Well, thing is, baton pass isn't the crucial flaw. Psych-up is. Because you can buff mollesk into a defensive godling in 3 turns' time, and then give the same bonuses to the rest of your team in just 1 turn. That's what I think is broken. And I'm not saying there aren't certain counters, like whirlwind, or haze. What I'm saying is that those decrease psych-up's over-effectiveness, but don't remove it entirely.
Because, assume you have 6 pokemon. So does the enemy. Your pokemon have all psyched themselves up. 3 of your enemy's pokemon have whirlwind. 1 has haze. They use all of that, it's all very effective.
...
Thing is, you still have 1 pokemon with the buffs. Next turn, all you have to do is have the rest of your team psych-up again, and you'll be back on top. And the one that survived with its buffs intact can 1-hit the hazer. Rinse and repeat. Sure, it's beatable, but it's difficult.

That's why I proposed the limitations I did. Sure, maybe there's a better way to balance it, but I thought, since the only conceivable reason for letting psych-up target allies was to monstrously buff your sides power, the way I proposed was pretty good.


But y'know what? Screw it. You're right.
Not about the move, mind-you, if you continue using it on allies it'll remain broken as hell, but about the discussion. It has dragged on far too long, and is no longer fun. And, trust me, it is not often that I regret starting a discussion.

So, yeah. Screw it. I'll keep an eye out for balancing, and hope that AB takes the stuff I say seriously, but it's his RP. I'll let him look out for it.

...

Though if there's ever a sequel, and if Impact is the main villain, and you reach the final battle with him, and I get to direct Impact's side...
You will all be so fucking screwed.
:3

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Geminex

That's why I proposed the limitations I did. Sure, maybe there's a better way to balance it, but I thought, since the only conceivable reason for letting psych-up target allies was to monstrously buff your sides power, the way I proposed was pretty good.

Let's see... Maybe halve or quarter the boost gotten from Psych Up? I'm thinking that way it's still useful for giving yourself a nice buff, but not obscenely so like copying Snorlax's.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Though if there's ever a sequel, and if Impact is the main villain, and you reach the final battle with him, and I get to direct Impact's side...
You will all be so fucking screwed.
:3

Challenge accepted.

[Geminex]

I find the above post entirely satisfactory. Halve the psych-up bonus gained from copying team-mates, and I'm happy.

And Drac, don't flatter yourself. Menarker's the challenge here. "Master tactician" indeed. Hell, I'll beat him at strategy and munchkining. You wait.

[Dracorion]

Menarker's nothing.

I just wanna test myself against your strategy, is that so wrong?

EDIT: Y'know, now that you approve of halving Psych Up I'm thinking we should make it two-thirds instead.

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Ok, I'll make this quick:

Look at it this way: If this move didn't exist yet, but AB invented it as a trainer upgrade, saying "Ok, you can give your pokemon the ability to copy any stats changes on the battlefield. This counts as an attack, so you'll need to sacrifice a moveslot and a turn.", would anyone here doubt my inevitable protest would be justified?

@ Geminex:

"JAR JAR, YOU'RE A GENIUS!"

^^

When you mention moveslot, it made me realize that part of the problem is that I was able to use Psych Up without investing into anything at all! No moveslot or anything. My use of Follow Me is ok because I invested in it. Belly Drum belongs to an NPC, but even that's fairly passable as a one time NPC occurance and using up a move slot too. But a reoccuring NPC that has a library of moves to use at will?

I think part of the problem that everyone is forgetting about is that all the "abusable parts" are coming from the pokebrids! The ability to choose ANY move from the pokemon move-list is admitably a VERY powerful feature since trainers wouldn't invest a moveslot if they had a "mook" following them that knows it and can use it effectively. I think we should keep the Psych Up and such as is, but somewhat limit the uses of NPC pokebrids so that we can't just use any single move of theirs. (Matthias is a PC and thus should be exempt from all this. If he damn wants to use Psych Up, he should damn well be able to!)

Therefore, I suggest that there is a number limit of how many moves they can use before they have to recharge. Like 2 moves and then they can't use moves from their pokebrid forms (with the exception of their super moves) for a turn or two, and the uses recharges as they regain "stamina". They could still use healing items, since that was their main purpose in the first place and it doesn't take a toll on the body, but a limit on their moves would prevent overuses of Psych Up, overuses of Helping Hand which was a source of argument earlier too.

Sorry for extending the debate, but I felt Gem brought up a damn good notion. ^^ *Pats on the back*

EDIT: Also, since I sent Dormond to your group and the only NPC pokebrid left is on healing duty, the Psych Up situation is actually pretty much over.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

Therefore, I suggest that there is a number limit of how many moves they can use before they have to recharge. Like 2 moves and then they can't use moves from their pokebrid forms for a turn or two, and the uses recharges as they regain "stamina". They could still use healing items, since that was their main purpose in the first place and it doesn't take a toll on the body, but a limit on their moves would prevent overuses of Psych Up, overuses of Helping Hand which was a source of argument earlier too.

Okay, I can't think of any other way to balance Pokebrids, so sure.

But, two turns seems a little excessive. I'd say three or four before they have to recharge.