Boycott Atlus

[Fenris]

I guess one thing I'm thinking is that if you're even going to bother posting in a discussion about this topic, maybe do some research first instead of demanding Liz educate you on a topic you're trying to intelligently discuss?

I mean, Liz should (and has!) provide(d) insight as to why you should do the things Liz thinks you should do, but it's not a one-way street and you need to put forth some effort if you wish to be taken at all seriously in a discussion via this medium.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Fenris

I mean, Liz should (and has!) provide(d) insight as to why you should do the things Liz thinks you should do, but it's not a one-way street and you need to put forth some effort if you wish to be taken at all seriously in a discussion via this medium.

Well, that's the thing, once you linked me to the article on the male gaze, I read it, and shut up about it. Without knowing about that though, I had no idea that it was even a thing, and there was no way that I'd have thought to google it to see if it was a thing. I take issue with the fact that linking to things to help people know what's going on has to be done in a manner so dismissive, where you assume that they're talking out of a position of not caring.

Even having read the article, I disagree with the usage of the term heterosexual male gaze, for two reasons. The main reason is because of the confusion that it caused already (I don't think I was the only one who didn't know of it as a term), but if you do insist upon using it, simply use Male Gaze. In the article, they said that there is only one gaze, and that it's the Male Gaze, even if it's a female doing it to a male, a male doing it to a male, et cetera. While heterosexual male gaze is more specific, it's also more technically incorrect as per the definition of the term. If you're looking to invoke the (apparently) well known term, you should be using it as it is defined.

[phil_]

I'm on your side, but the only Atlus published game I own is Dokapon Kingdom, which has a pretty pink princess as the prize, though girl characters are just as eligible to win her as boys are; and I'm not interested in purchasing any of their other games. Still, rooting for you, what with a world were trans- and gay issues (not to mention "Check out these boobies!") are handled better being a world where I can recommend stuff I like more freely.

I can contribute to this discussion, though, late as I am. My contribution is this: If someone's using terms you're not familiar with, and you're about to make a post on the internet telling them you're hurt by that term you're not familiar with, five minutes on google can help you not say things that get you yelled at or, at least, let you know fo' sho' that you mean to say what you're about to say. To avoid beating around the bush and the related quote relay, rpg, dude, you could've kept your nose clean if you'd just looked up "male gaze" before you posted. Including the word "heterosexual" wouldn't have even messed up the google results. And Fenry said the same thing while I was typing this, just without the more general application part.

Wait, one more thing. MLK made concise and rational cases about the injustice being done to American blacks repeatedly, over many years. This thread opened a day ago. Kinda early to be calling for Liz's "I have a dream" speech.

[Pip Boy]

Yeah, but that doesn't mean its too early for her to stop shouting "Fuck you for only being 70% on my side" when people request some clarifications in the very same post where they provide further support for the case.

There is not a single person to have posted in this thread to disagree by even the smallest modicum on any part that hasn't been accused of
1) Not reading the thread
2) Being an entitled asshole
3) Derailing/Trolling

Im frustrated that the biased narrative of this thread permits people to make whatever insensitive/disrespectful/inflammatory remarks fair game as long as they're pretending its justified by the other person's failure to blindly join a crusade.

[Kim]

Right, RPG going, "Well, I was going to support you, but you aren't using the right words," sure was helpful and supportive. Derailing a discussion about a company's failings into a nonsense back and forth about what the right words are as started by someone who can't even bother to look up the term he's complaining about definitely isn't derailing, except to the extent that it actually is 100% derailing.

[Nikose Tyris]

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

Yeah, but that doesn't mean its too early for her to stop shouting "Fuck you for only being 70% on my side" when people request some clarifications in the very same post where they provide further support for the case.

There is not a single person to have posted in this thread to disagree by even the smallest modicum on any part that hasn't been accused of
1) Not reading the thread
2) Being an entitled asshole
3) Derailing/Trolling

Im frustrated that the biased narrative of this thread permits people to make whatever insensitive/disrespectful/inflammatory remarks fair game as long as they're pretending its justified by the other person's failure to blindly join a crusade.

That's because everyone who disagrees is either:
a) not reading the thread
b) an entitled asshole or
c) derailing/trolling

[rpgdemon]

The thing is though, I wouldn't have even thought to google male gaze (And didn't think to), because it doesn't sound like a term with such background behind it within the context that it was used. It's not a matter of taking offense to it, it was distracting from the point that was being made. My first post didn't make that clear, but the second one ought to have.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who has never heard the term before. "This is pandering to the heterosexual male gaze" sounds like it's just pointing out that advertising to heterosexual males, which to me sounded almost like a call not to cut the crap, but to ensure that it was ~equal~ in it's pandering. I want the crap cut, not a 50/50 split of crap.

I will be honest that I was also probably biased towards reading it that way, because of when Liz went into the Avatar thread and yelled about how they were all straight and she was sick of seeing too much straightness. It seemed like the advertising equivalent to that: I read it as a call for representation of more than just what interests heterosexual males, whereas I thought it ought to be a call to cut the terribleness of this type of advertising entirely, not just be more fair about how it's done.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Liz

Right, RPG going, "Well, I was going to support you, but you aren't using the right words," sure was helpful and supportive. Derailing a discussion about a company's failings into a nonsense back and forth about what the right words are as started by someone who can't even bother to look up the term he's complaining about definitely isn't derailing, except to the extent that it actually is 100% derailing.

Like, without having heard of it, would you look up the term heterosexual male gaze? I sincerely doubt it: You know all the component words, you can understand clearly that it means it's meant to attract heterosexual males! That's not at all what it means, but why would I have looked it up when the words pretty clearly meant something that I thought I understood the meaning of?

[Nikose Tyris]

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

Like, without having heard of it, would you look up the term heterosexual male gaze? I sincerely doubt it: You know all the component words, you can understand clearly that it means it's meant to attract heterosexual males! That's not at all what it means, but why would I have looked it up when the words pretty clearly meant something that I thought I understood the meaning of?

Attacking the Gazebo will not actually help you understand what it is.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Nikose Tyris

Attacking the Gazebo will not actually help you understand what it is.

I hope you appreciate how hard it was to figure out the source for what that meant.

It's not a matter of having no idea what a gazebo is. A more apt analogy would be if I said, "I go sit in the gazebo", and the DM was like, "Okay, it eats you and you die, dude wtf why didn't you look it up in the monster manual?" Why would I look up Gazebo in the monster manual?