Pokemon Umbral Discussion 25: Pokegeddon Returns - Page 15

Geminex · 06-02-2010, 09:52 PM

Really? When? Assuming Super-Fang works... Last time we killed an Omnisroth, we cut its health in half, hit it with three quad-effective attacks. We also halved its defense. So if they're as survivable as an Omnisroth, it might actually be fairly close. And we're not certain to take down Frosqueen either...

Ok, and one more thing: Instead of having moon's kingdra use hydro pump, have him deploy fathom, and use helping hand on Impact. ^^

Dracorion · 06-02-2010, 09:53 PM

... Eh, yeah, okay.

Bard The 5th LW · 06-02-2010, 09:55 PM

Well i'm probably just imagining Omnisroth as being a bit easy because we've never fought that many of them at a time. I think three was the most at once.

But yeah, if these are all the strength of an Omnisroth, or more, then this will be a tough match to get through.

Geminex · 06-02-2010, 10:21 PM

Omnisroth. That's the big one, isn't it?. We've only fought two of them, ever. One in the vault, one in the mansion.

But ok, we'll go with Drac's modification of my plan. It might work.

Dracorion · 06-02-2010, 10:28 PM

Right, so:

Quote:

Moon: Lanturn's Signal Beam at Gardenoir, Fathom to use Helping Hand on Impact.

Rachel: Leave combat to use two rage rockets on Impact. Leaves combat, so hopefully immune to damage.

Impact: Dark ambition, leaving him with 0 Rage. Use second adrenaline boost. Attack Frossqueen with Flamethrower. STAB super-effective. Request Swarm Bow in exchange for Flamethrower.

Charlotte: Spitz' Super Fang on Pegidash, Hammond to use Stone Edge on Pegidash.

Renny: Use Serene blessing (Charlotte's enforcer and Milsha to spend 35 rage to extend protection to Matt and Impact). Mollesk to use Rock Slide on Frossqueen, Swampert to Mimic Stone Edge on Frossqueen. We can test flinching another time.

Pierce: Tyranitar with Stone Edge on Pegidash, Blaziken with Overheat on Frosqueen.

Matt: Venomoth form, use sleep powder on Regina

Harliette: Mineral shot on Pegidash, Blissey's sing, also on Regina, deploy Illumise, Bug Buzz on Gardenoir.

Wilhelmina: Nether Shot on Frossqueen.

Trainer Attacks at Pegidash. If it's dead, target Frossqueen.

Gardenoir: Two quad-effective attacks.
Regina: Sleep Powder and Sing.
Frossqueen: Five super-effective attacks.
Pegidash: Super Fang, three quad-effective attacks. Charlotte's and Pierce's Trainer Attacks.

Threw in Fathom using Helping Hand on Impact.

Geminex · 06-02-2010, 10:35 PM

That's it. Maybe even better than my version, you use Wilhelmina better.
Let's do it, have Pierce suggest that they should hit Frosqueen instead of Altarisect. Impact will agree.
Let's do it.

Menarker · 06-02-2010, 11:39 PM

I just got back home and I'm getting all the blame before I could defend myself!

1: The current plan can hardly be called "defensive". I tried to make the plan really defensive, but Drac rejected it utterly saying that it costs way too much RP. But the current set up... Only protects Renny, Impact and Matthias? (and maybe Rachel and Wilhelmina) Hardly defensive in my book. I tried to propose the ultra defensive plan which still had lots of offence (since you didn't lose your ability to attack and still gained rage from that), but Drac rejected it. So I proposed something with offense that could be shifted into defence.

2: My "proposed" plan wasn't meant to be a defiance of your tactics, but a possible alternative. (Since Drac wanted to use his Co-Op technique and doesn't want to spend rage on using Protect.) Consider this. My contribution via Rocket Boosting the party could also serve in a defensive manner if you wanted to take it that way. The rage can be saved for next turn, for when Rachel can pay to uses more items on the party, Moon can put a Special Defense device (he could even do it the current turn with my plan), Renny could activate Serene Blessing, but this time with the party having more RP than they had before (and for when we saw what the foes had to offer). Other people could use rage for whatever they wanted. Offense, Defense. The rage could be saved for next turn.
Yes the plan could be used offensively (and I built it looking like that to plactate Drac who wanted to use his Hellfire above all else) but it could have also been used defensively.

3: I thought using Wilhelmina ability was good because it also boosts her defence by 5 stages. Plus with Slayer getting boosted rage generation and 2 attacks, she'd get 20 rage per turn. With a rocket boost or two, she could do her Signature Attack every other turn or so.

4: If Renny uses Propserous Gifts, he has 40 rage to build up on for Serene Blessing later on. A rocket boost and an attack later, he could use Serene Blessing the turn after.

So honestly, I'm just saying that having Renny use Serene Blessing only to protect 2 other people is an waste of his RP, since payment option is only available on that turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dracorion

Nope. I didn't like Menarker's plan either. I was all for limiting our RP expending. I'll admit, I got rather carried away with Signature Technique spam.

Oh please, you weren't for limiting RP spending. You wanted to use Co-Op technique, instead of the Protect thing despite...
A: Pure Offense, Opposite of Gem's plan at the time.
B: More expensive (100 RP) than Protect (70 for 2 pokemon)

Geminex · 06-02-2010, 11:49 PM

Thing is, we have the choice between Renny using Serene grace now and prosperous gifts later, or vice-versa. And since all of our enemies have max RP, I expect them to use these RP. Hence, I'd prefer to protect ourselves (with Serene Grace), and not use too many RP yet, so that later, when we know more about our enemies than just their type, we can more effectively allocate those RP. And if you think that we're not protecting enough friendlies, sure, extend protection to Harliette as well, have Renny's enforcer pay. That'll mean just 8 potential targets for whatever our foes decide to do next.

The plan isn't so much defensive in that it avoids damage, but in that it avoids our most valuable assets from getting damaged, and stores our more valuable resources for when we can more effectively use them.

Menarker · 06-02-2010, 11:55 PM

Renny's enforcer is special. Her special ability makes her invincible for 3 turns. That counts as a good stall against powerful attacks while still attacking, and those 3 turn Renny is hiding behind her would also heal his leader pokemons and give him 50 rage.

Besides, I don't want Harriette or her pokemon protected yet. Renny gains equal rage when she or her pokemon gets hurt. That boosts his ability to help the party with Prosperous Gifts or Testament Drives or whatever.

Why can't Harriette pay for two people's protection? She gains rage faster than anyone else, would get double rage if someone rocket boosted her (50 rage instead of 25) like Renny or Rachel probably would, and we aren't using her Desperado ability now. And if she gets hit like I expect she would, she would get tons of rage back.

I'd be more enthuastic about the plan if there was a few more people protected. Would feel that my technique got its bucks worth.

Geminex · 06-03-2010, 12:20 AM

Economics time!

Your technique has a fixed cost, and a variable cost. The fixed cost is 70 RPs for yourself, variable cost is 35 RPs, for further targets. You also have a fixed benefit and a variable benefit. Fixed benefit is protection for both of your pokemon, variable benefit is protection for a further target. Your technique is being used most efficiently when the total profit (i.e. total benefit-total cost) is maximised.

Each time you extend protect to a target other than renny's pokemon (that is to say, you pay another 35 RP), you gain marginal profits. That is to say, you pay a cost and gain a benefit. Your marginal profits for extending protection are the benefits of extending this protetion, minus the cost of extending this protection. You should continue extending protection as long as marginal profits>0. Slayers and pokebrids are difficult to replace, protecting them has, I think, a positive marginal profit. But pokemon are lower in value. So I think, when you use that technique, you should only be protecting Slayers, or very vulnerable pokemon.

Though, considering Vengeful Rage, I think you're right. Let's leave Harliette unprotected.

06-02-2010, 09:53 PM	#142
Dracorion Moves Like Jagger, Kupo! Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: To the south, a little to the left... Or to the right. Posts: 4,910	... Eh, yeah, okay. __________________ Dracorion's dumbass color is Royal Blue. If you see that color, you better run the fuck away.

06-02-2010, 11:55 PM	#149
Menarker OMG! WHAT SHOULD I DO NOW? Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,802	Renny's enforcer is special. Her special ability makes her invincible for 3 turns. That counts as a good stall against powerful attacks while still attacking, and those 3 turn Renny is hiding behind her would also heal his leader pokemons and give him 50 rage. Besides, I don't want Harriette or her pokemon protected yet. Renny gains equal rage when she or her pokemon gets hurt. That boosts his ability to help the party with Prosperous Gifts or Testament Drives or whatever. Why can't Harriette pay for two people's protection? She gains rage faster than anyone else, would get double rage if someone rocket boosted her (50 rage instead of 25) like Renny or Rachel probably would, and we aren't using her Desperado ability now. And if she gets hit like I expect she would, she would get tons of rage back. I'd be more enthuastic about the plan if there was a few more people protected. Would feel that my technique got its bucks worth. __________________ THE BIO OF RENNY TRESSERHORN THE BIOs OF POKEMON UMBRAL! Last edited by Menarker; 06-02-2010 at 11:58 PM.

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06-02-2010, 09:52 PM	#141
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Really? When? Assuming Super-Fang works... Last time we killed an Omnisroth, we cut its health in half, hit it with three quad-effective attacks. We also halved its defense. So if they're as survivable as an Omnisroth, it might actually be fairly close. And we're not certain to take down Frosqueen either... Ok, and one more thing: Instead of having moon's kingdra use hydro pump, have him deploy fathom, and use helping hand on Impact. ^^

06-02-2010, 09:55 PM	#143
Bard The 5th LW Feelin' Super! Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 4,191	Well i'm probably just imagining Omnisroth as being a bit easy because we've never fought that many of them at a time. I think three was the most at once. But yeah, if these are all the strength of an Omnisroth, or more, then this will be a tough match to get through.

06-02-2010, 10:21 PM	#144
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Omnisroth. That's the big one, isn't it?. We've only fought two of them, ever. One in the vault, one in the mansion. But ok, we'll go with Drac's modification of my plan. It might work.

06-02-2010, 10:35 PM	#146
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	That's it. Maybe even better than my version, you use Wilhelmina better. Let's do it, have Pierce suggest that they should hit Frosqueen instead of Altarisect. Impact will agree. Let's do it.

06-02-2010, 11:49 PM	#148
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Thing is, we have the choice between Renny using Serene grace now and prosperous gifts later, or vice-versa. And since all of our enemies have max RP, I expect them to use these RP. Hence, I'd prefer to protect ourselves (with Serene Grace), and not use too many RP yet, so that later, when we know more about our enemies than just their type, we can more effectively allocate those RP. And if you think that we're not protecting enough friendlies, sure, extend protection to Harliette as well, have Renny's enforcer pay. That'll mean just 8 potential targets for whatever our foes decide to do next. The plan isn't so much defensive in that it avoids damage, but in that it avoids our most valuable assets from getting damaged, and stores our more valuable resources for when we can more effectively use them.

06-03-2010, 12:20 AM	#150
Geminex SOM3WH3R3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 4,606	Economics time! Your technique has a fixed cost, and a variable cost. The fixed cost is 70 RPs for yourself, variable cost is 35 RPs, for further targets. You also have a fixed benefit and a variable benefit. Fixed benefit is protection for both of your pokemon, variable benefit is protection for a further target. Your technique is being used most efficiently when the total profit (i.e. total benefit-total cost) is maximised. Each time you extend protect to a target other than renny's pokemon (that is to say, you pay another 35 RP), you gain marginal profits. That is to say, you pay a cost and gain a benefit. Your marginal profits for extending protection are the benefits of extending this protetion, minus the cost of extending this protection. You should continue extending protection as long as marginal profits>0. Slayers and pokebrids are difficult to replace, protecting them has, I think, a positive marginal profit. But pokemon are lower in value. So I think, when you use that technique, you should only be protecting Slayers, or very vulnerable pokemon. Though, considering Vengeful Rage, I think you're right. Let's leave Harliette unprotected.