The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Tydeus]

I just wanted to restate:

"And while we're discussing some of the twisted stuff out there -- Hell. How insane is that? Eternal torture? Fucking eternal!? What could possibly warrant that? That's incredibly twisted and sadistic. Punishment is only useful to teach people something -- otherwise it's just sadism, power-lust, revenge, and general insanity. Hell and a loving God are 100% incompatible. If you can rationalize Hell's existence, then you have less humanity and conscience than me, the resident Forum Sociopath. Nice going."

No one thus far has addressed the complete insanity of the idea of hell. Utterly sadistic and without love or compassion, eternal torture is beyond all excuse. I don't think anyone can rationally argue otherwise. But, try if you can, I guess.

[42PETUNIAS]

In the old testament days, everyone who existed knew who God was. And they knew that a savior would be sent eventually. So at one time, the entirety of humanity did have access to the info. But, a lot fell away, which leads back to my earlier bible quote. Which literally translated means that if your forefathers rejected God, you were going to Hell unless you repented. The same follows today. The reason so many people on Earth have no access to the Bible or what it teaches is because their ancestors fell away a long time ago and their family line never got back on the right track.

The "Whole world independantly fell away from god" only works if you believe that everyone but noah and his family died in the flood, if that didn't happen, than god only showed himself to very few. Also, the whole idea of being damned eternally because your great-great-great grandfather was a bad person is pretty sketchy. Further, even if everyone had a chance to accept god, Jesus still didn't make his teachings availible to the entire world.

[Azisien]

The concept of hell also doesn't make a whole lot of sense, being described by finite beings. How can I be punished eternally? It would have to be rather light punishment, else my consciousness would break apart rather quickly. Of course, ordinary notions of having a body to, you know, punish and torture don't really apply either.

And we feel nothing, nothing, beyond our bodies.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Azisien

And we feel nothing, nothing, beyond our bodies.

How do you know? It's like everyone's been asking me. "Have you ever been the Heaven or Hell?"

I have a really good resource for info on Hell and answers to some of your questions that I just couldn't find the answer to.

http://www.ch-of-christ.beaverton.or...Hell_Exist.htm

I liked one quote in particular: "If we have a problem with endless suffering, it means that we have not yet fully comprehended the wickedness of human rebellion, and we have failed to grasp how evil it is to go contrary to the will of God."

Again, I hate going into quoting websites, but I think it's very accurate in it's analysis of bible passages.

[Archbio]

In the old testament days, everyone who existed knew who God was. And they knew that a savior would be sent eventually. So at one time, the entirety of humanity did have access to the info.

I'd like to know how much do you think that can be justified by actual historical research.

I really think you're making a mistake if you think that with History you can get away with as much "it's whatever I say it is" than with good, evil and love. It doesn't just make discussion moot.

[P-Sleazy]

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary

Sorry, for the first time this thread I'm gonna have to disagree with you, B_real. It says several times in the bible that whether you go to heaven or not is independant of the lifestyle you lead as long as you repent for whatever bad you've done. You can be the nicest person in the world, give the most charity, help the most people...but in the end it comes down to if you accept Jesus or not

The lifestyle I was talking about would be refering to (and include if not so much refer) this kind of thing.

Quick save by B_real...OOOOOH Yea....

Thanks for helping clarify Bob!

[ZAKtheGeek]

One question I noticed is something along the lines of, "Why is it so hard to just believe?" Let's toss Pascal's Wager in here too. I only know myself this well, so this might not apply to everyone, but I can't just believe. I can say that I believe all I want, and think it too, but in truth, right this moment, I would not believe in God (or whatever deity/faith you want). Like all people, I am rational, and I can't just "accept" something unless it makes rational sense to me. I can't just say, "Okay, now I believe in God. All those things that made no sense before? Fuck that, I'll just ignore it. I'm going to heaven!"

Well, I mean, I could say it, but I'd be lying.

[42PETUNIAS]

Originally Posted by B_real_shadows

The lifestyle I was talking about would be refering to (and include if not so much refer) this kind of thing.

Quick save by B_real...OOOOOH Yea....

Thanks for helping clarify Bob!

Im pretty sure you're misinterpreting what he said. You had said that as long as you are a good person, and don't outright reject Jesus, then you will go to heaven. Bob said that was wrong, and that you can do all the good things you like, if you don't accept Jesus, you don't go to heaven.

So no, he wasn't clarifying, he was saying you were very very wrong.

Well, I mean, I could say it, but I'd be lying.

Im pretty sure just going through the motions isn't enough. You have to accept Jesus with all your heart to get into Christian heaven.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Right, well, I didn't mean to imply that saying it would have any effect. Just that I technically could say it.

[Loki, The Fallen]

This does appear to be the IN place right now. Why I return? Because I'm bored and have some spare time at work...

Still catching up while typing my response. First, I'll even give the opposing side a hand with the whole "God toys with us ants and doesn't really love us" side of the debate.

B_real_shadows's rebuttal:

To Mesden:
Except Moses told the Pharaoh what would happen if he didn't let the Jews go.

Man, you can't say that, Pharaoh was not given a choice, for his heart was intentionally hardened. It was kind of a thing where God wanted to prove to Pharaoh that he existed. Not really the best example if you want to debate Mesden's point.

Bob's Comment:

Deuteronomy 5:9
Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.

For those who believe in the religions based on the Old Testament alone, that is true. There was a sacrifice sent for us to save us from all of the Old Testament rules, of course, if you believe in any New Testament religion.

Krylo's knifty (Yet rather graphic) post regarding 'Religion as being the cause of all life's woes' mini-thread:

You know, I got nothin'. I can't explain why members of a religion people currently follow might do evil things to each other, especially when it is written against in their respective books. Maybe I'll ask those nice people from a different religion why they blow themselves up or kill people who won’t convert? Just like why I can't explain people like the Branch Dividians, Al-Qaeda, the Palestinians, (not going to follow that guys rule and list it here, even if it has been brought up once in this very thread), or even other ideologies who may seem to practice such strange customs. I can't find a way inside their heads, because everything I read in The Book says that Judgment for such transgressions should be left to someone who is much more suited for the job. And no, this does not also mean "sending them there" early to be judged. Think more Amish guy from the Weird Al video.

*Note, I apologize for any religion/ideology I have left out, as I can't print every single one that has done really bad things. I have not the time, nor post-size limit to do so. Also, I'm not saying I AM the Amish guy in the Weird Al video, just giving an example...(and now for the 10trillion posts about 'How can you compare a true follower of a religion to a guy in a funny music video?' and 'How dare you forget my dark cult of people who forcibly remove the heretic’s eye-lashes and stick them up their nose?')*

*Note again: Yes this does go against the whole love they neighbor thing. I'm not a good person.*

Bad things are done in the name of religion. Do I defend them? No. Does that make all religion bad? I think not.

And now the discussion moves to another fun-filled subject, H e double hockey sticks.

Nobody likes the idea of people going to hell. This kind of explains the whole missionary thing. Many Christians feel the need to try to save others from that fate.

Oh, and Bob's response to loving thing was nice. Saved me from writing entirely too much to say the same thing.

Okay, I saved the best for last. My favorite part of this whole thread (only recently discovered my favorite part...) the continuation of my Discussion with Locke! I know one of these times I'm going to say something that will really make him fume, as he has said many things which caused an immediate emotional outburst from me. Believe me (heh); I have had to fight to hold it all in...

First, the light hearted things...

You don't seem to understand the argument I keep making: you are raping Occam like it's your job.

So want to make a comment about that, but it would simply make me sadder.

Regarding your 5 points, yes, it is a leap of faith. Many people had to take such leaps to make any of their points, I mean, try proving the world was round to the church in the good ol' days? We couldn't actually see for ourselves until we left the ground and actually saw for ourselves. And yes, they did have other ways to prove it, but some people want to SEE it.

Which leads me to another one of your points I must address before we go too much further:

I implore you to stop putting scientific theories in the same plane as religious ones.

I see too much similarity between the two sides. I have heard religious people scream with certainty that we will "Burn in Hell", heard people say you must convert or die, and I have heard (and seen) people who get so angry when science is questioned that they fume! Really, if we can't set emotions aside, we're going to end up not talking anymore. Whats the difference of someone saying you can't argue something because it's "Divine Law" and someone arguing something because "boatloads of super smart people say so"? Sometimes we all take ourselves entirely too seriously.

And really, if we take all of this too seriously, then the Terrorists have won.
*Come on, tongue in cheek here people*

We're all posting questions and answers, trying to openly discuss this rather heavy subject. I'm sure its going to lead to more anger before it ends (from either side). But who are we kidding if we think any of this will:
A) Shake the belief of someone who is truly devout;
B) Sway someone who may have fallen from their specific ideology.

I see this as a way for either side to see how they think, and perhaps how they think, and perhaps to help steel the resolve of people's faith in thier personal ideology.

So what you're telling me is that despite truckloads of evidence to the contrary, you'll continue to "believe" because you feel like it?

Really, it's everyone's choice on how and what to believe. If I don't believe that 1 + 1 = 2, the only one who really suffers is me, because I will be getting fired while screaming that my boss owes me $4.75 instead of the $2 he really did. It’s a whole freedom thing. It's one of those things that was given to us. (Like the freedom to not believe, if we see fit.)

Religious logic seeps into everything, clouding our worldview. Thus it becomes acceptable to openly purport beliefs which are blatantly unjustified, all because of a "feeling." If scientists based everything on "feelings," we would be approximately nowhere right about now.

Humans are the strangest creatures, are they not? But (now, I don't want to put words in your mouth, and I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong) are you saying that unless it's based PURELY on science, unless a bunch of people in white coats say it's LAW, that we SHOULDN'T think a certain way? I believe it's our imagination that allows humans to continue to improve on themselves, and if that means allowing them to believe they were created by a being of divine pasta, so should it be.

I know it's a sad analogy to post, but the movie Equilibrium showed a world without emotion. What’s weird? I think it looked kinda cool. (This coming from the 'Feeling' advocate.)

(Which is weird, because I am almost always on the other side of a 'Feeling' debate...)

Regarding the person you refer to as "Sam 'The Man' Harris", why do you cling to him so? It seems many of your posts offer some quote from him. He must be quite inspiring to read; perhaps I'll look him up. Any recommended reading material?

And now:

I addressed scientific disagreement in quotes below. Eventually, the theory which presents the most accurate case which is most grounded in the facts will prevail. Not so with religion.

Yes, this is understood. Most religions are not like science. They have different ways of running their respected ideologies. Except:

My point was that neither of you has any evidence for the validity of your claim. Both of you would say that your religion backs you up, and historically, the priest who condemns people left and right has more of a precedent. It just goes to show how pointless it is to try to interpret religious law.

Religions offer different interpretations, science offers different theories. Both are based on their appropriate foundation. (Science's laws regarding "Reality" and Religion's laws regarding how one should live.) I guess it's pointless to those who don't care, like for those of us who may or may not care how the Universe is supposed to end. We will all be long dead and reduced to inorganic matter well before it occurs. I'm not saying I don't care, because all of this stuff fascinates me.

Another lunch period (and then some) burned... what am I going to do when this thread is ended and called to judgment before its creator or when it simply becomes a random collection of 1s and 0s that bear no likeness to its original form?