GamerGate? Da fuq is a GamerGate?

[Krylo]

RMB and Snake: Both ya'll need to calm down.

Ryong was able to argue from your position, RMB, without doing. . . all that. . . stuff you're doing. Type calm, deep breaths, that kind of thing.

And Snake, please refrain from insulting or instigating RMB further when he's clearly already rather put out.

---------- Post added at 04:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:19 PM ----------

Also: Everyone just stop posting links past each other. And definitely don't just post names.

If you want to post a link quote something relevant from it, explain how it fits into the questions the other side is asking, etc.

Don't try to win a debate through: "Well you don't want to read 200 pages of stuff I just linked? CLEARLY you just don't even care about anything but your own narrow world view."

If someone asks for something specific (I.E. Arhra asking for places GG organizes), then feel free to link that. If someone says this source or that source doesn't hold weight with them because of this reason or that reason, either, CALMLY, argue why you don't agree with their argument or find another.

Also, attempt to keep arguments about why an article doesn't sit with you to things the person's actual argument contained. I'm not going to say you necessarily have to follow every link, or that saying "I can't bring myself to watch all that because this person did ______ and it makes me feel ill to look at their face" is out of bounds, but. . .

BUT, that's the beauty of asking you guys to post quotes that are relevant to the current discussion we're having: People don't need to give clicks to sites they don't like, advertising revenue to people they feel are abusive or violent, or look at anyone's face they don't like.

. . . And don't just quote the entire article.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Krylo

And Snake, please refrain from insulting or instigating RMB further when he's clearly already rather put out.

About 95% of what was actually typed up there was rational, level-headed analysis.
And as for the remaining 5%, given everything that RMB said about Kim and every other 'social justice warrior' here, I can't just let that shit slide. I can't. Like, I understand your perspective re: just doin' your job and all that, but when I'm literally in a position where the two options are calling this out:

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway.

...or letting it slide, you are essentially putting me in a position where the option that results in me being reprimanded by Administration or outright banned is still preferable to the alternative, because the alternative is making this place a hostile environment for Kim and Pocheros and every other woman who'd dare visit NPF despite all the shit being tossed their way.

Like, at one point or another this is about the kind of community you want to foster here, and I'm not going to let RMB or Robin or anyone else bully or demean anyone who dares claim to give a shit about social justice, and I'm not going to let anyone then give me a "Both Sidez" explanation as to why our behavior is in any way equivalent.

I'll never for the life of me understand the NPF Moderation Team's stance regarding reactionary comments and holding those justifiably offended by instigators more responsible than the instigators themselves.

[Marc v4.0]

Look, I'll be nice and calm and chill and have open discussion with however about whatever, i really will, but I'm not really interested in debating around in carefully shifted circles with someone who has made it painfully and obviously clear that they don't think anything of my opinion or viewpoint beyond 'Go fuck yourself'. There is no reasoned discourse to be had from that, especially since it shows no sign of lessening at all, beyond falling -just barely- in line with the rules

I don't owe someone like that anything, much less another moment of my time, and I get 10 times more than enough of it already on my twitter mentions whenever I retweet something related to this, and Twitter doesn't really do anything about it, either.

[Krylo]

That's fine and I agree that RMB was far out of line and did so first. . .

But much like how in the real world if you see someone committing a crime and you're too late to actually stop it, the proper response is not to hit them in the head with a shovel: It's to call the police.

My point wasn't to punish one or both of you, and certainly not to punish you more, it was to ask you both to calm down because if you insult RMB, he's just going to come back doing what he has been doing harder and it's going to hurt everyone else more, which is going to lead to this thread falling apart entirely. You, know, more than it has already.

Nobody has gotten a warning, at least not yet (mostly because I don't give warnings because I don't really want to be a real mod).

Or, shorter version, it's not that I'm not taking sides--RMB was certainly farther out of line and was so first--it's that I'm trying to keep something that people clearly want to talk about as viable to talk about. I'm trying to herd the discussion into productive avenues so that we don't have to ban a bunch of people and/or close a very active thread that was very calm and reasonable not long ago.

ALSO: This thread has suffered enough within context of the thread derails already. I'd prefer any further discussion of this particular thing go to my inbox not into this thread.

EDIT: I guess I could also log into chat in a minute, for a bit. I know most of you guys are there, most of the time.

[shiney]

Originally Posted by Krylo

Ah, people make mistakes sometimes when they get glib. Especially old folks who aren't used to the idea of transexuality being a thing--as that, while gender dysphoria was, it was kinda like being gay in the 20s, no one talked about it, until a couple years ago.

I'm sure Shiney didn't mean anything by it and is likely sorry. Don't take his missteps to heart.

Extremely this. I had several drinks last night and thought I was being funny when in fact I was just insensitive. I am truly sorry for that. There was no malice, just ignorance. :<

For everything else: Also what Krylo said. 'Nuff said.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Your own behavior sure as hell proves NPF does need some serious social justice warrior bullshit, amigo.

"Comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."

I like the rherotic of the Gamer Gate movement. I don't want Journalists and Developers in cahoots or supporting one another. I don't want EA paying for the ad space that sits above the review of their latest game. But Snake, Liz, and maybe Marc (Even though you're a poopoohead) are totally fucking right. The movement is not now, or even never was, about that. Whether or not there were or are portions or leaders of that movement that were out for that purpose is pretty much irrelevant at this point because it's obvious enough that the majority of that leadership, and the majority of those people that are setting the tone are engaged not for that purpose but to drive women out of the ability to take part in the creation or discussion of the industry.

As a movement so far all Gamer Gate has done is make the industry a categorically more unsafe place for Women. It's given misogynists a banner and excuse to rail against them and direct people who probably aren't as misogynist to do the same by painting them as an enemy rather than other people that enjoy games.
I don't like some of the videos Anita makes, and I think it's possible to critique her without being a misogynist. Most of the people I've seen identify with Gamer Gate choose not to. That's basically the blanket case everywhere I've been looking: There's less and less conversation about the issues and more and more blatant attacks on the person.



Also to slightly derail for something Snake said that I could totally be wrong about: I think the controversy with Shadow of Mordor was sparked by an advertising company the publisher hired called Plaid Social, and going further into "things I could be wrong about" Territory, I believe that the developers spoke out against the idea when they heard about it?

That said and to bring it back on topic: One of the last things I looked at for that particular debacle was hashtagged Gamergate. What were people talking about in the comments? The RIDICULOUSLY BOLD FACED CORRUPTION INVOLVED IN TRYING TO FORCE REVIEWERS TO IGNORE THE FAULTS OF THE GAME?
Nope.
Bitching about how boring the combat system was to them.

[synkr0nized]

I'd love to be able to sit here and submit a post that will help bring the thread to a reasonable discourse, to keep NPF members from basically doing nothing but giving one another reasons to not like each other. Because that's all I see happening here -- folks disagreeing, and there is a sufficient gulf between opinions and/or sufficient unwavering rootedness in your positions that I cannot see a positive outcome to this thread.

I'm more interested in NPF being civil to NPF, not judging who's right and who's wrong in debates (Hi, Snake!**). But the more we go on like this, the more I feel like there's no hope for it.


** in reference to your smalltext comment above, not the content of any of your posts here

[shiney]

You guys synk is right. This thread is not likely to change anyone's viewpoint or opinion at this time, and people are firmly entrenched in their positions, bunkered down, and seemingly ready for the long haul. We have to be able to agree to disagree, even over something as basic and important as this, and in any case we can't go about battering each other endlessly and pissing each other off when it's fairly obvious that there is no 'resolution' per se.

With respect, we have a very wide worldview and tolerant approach to SJ and such, but this forum is not intended to be anyone's soapbox and even if some viewpoints are considered to be ignorant or otherwise abhorrent, it's not anyone's role to come in here and clean up the place. It's a small forum dedicated to The Dreadful, and anime, and video games, and friendships. What's going on in this thread is tangentially related to video games, and is destructive to friendships. Let's take a breather.