Pokemon Umbral Theatre 12: On a Very Special Episode of Pokemon Umbral...

[Geminex]

If I remember correctly, the only one here who thinks weather effects are unbalanced is you.

Menarker and I honestly believe they're fine as is.

I mean, hell, who uses weather effects in the game? There are a rare few situations where weather effects are actually viable instead of the ever popular "spam most powerful move" strategy. And in those situations, you're probably not going to use weather effects because you've been killing shit without them so far and you're not going to waste time or money giving a pokemon a stupid weather move for one freakin' battle when you're just going to go right back to killing shit the usual way anyway.

So yeah, compared to how useless they are in the games, I'm definitely okay with weather effects in this RP. They're, y'know, useful.

Well, weather does have a major impact, even in 1-on-1. I mean, yes, it's a global effect. It hits everyone. But thing is, you can choose when to initiate it. And you can initiate it in situations when it will greatly help you, or greatly harm your opponents. And a lot of those situations will pop up, even in a 1-on-1. Not really commonly, but even there it's usually feasible to base a tem around weather manipulation.
And that goes way further in the larger-scale battles we're doing. Sure, again. Weather affects everyone. But we're choosing when to change the weather. We change it when we benefit from it. And there's lots of situations when we benefit from it, and benefit greatly. There's tons of situations. If we're fighting humanoids, we sunny day and burn them away. If we're fighting mechanical units, rain and water or lightning attacks. If we're going defensive, rock pokemon plus sandstorm will do the trick easily. Ice is super effective against lots of shit, bring out 4 ice users, use one hailstorm, and bam. Plus 50% times 4, gives us an extra 200% damage, -100% for the use of the storm. And that's just a few examples.

My problem isn't with the inherent power of weather moves. But with the fact that, with the battles we're fighting, we're really likely to come across situations where a weather move will be massively more valuable than a damage-dealing attack. And while I'm all for encouraging the use of stuff other than damage-dealers, I don't think that the support moves should be that much more powerful than the damage moves. There's a discrepancy, one which really wasn't there in the games, and one that's placing rather too much of an emphasis on weather moves.

Like I said, they can really power us up. Even if our opponents cancel our weather stuff out as soon as it's their turn, they'll have taken some hits, it'll have been well, well worth our while.

Look, Menarker already outlined how all the weather moves are really powerful. I agree with what he wrote. Either we leave weather moves really strong, or we do something to weaken them. And there's really not much of a reason to leave them really strong.

Why are you making a big speech about bands?

And sure, what the hell, let's do it.

But why are you making a speech?

It was less just the bands thing, and more the entire 'ridiculously, awesomely over the top' aspect of this RP. I am embracing it! And will perpetuate it! AB mentioned logic, and he's right. There's no logic to be found here. But story-wise, we can make it great anyway.

And we'll do that best by embracing the crazy and then forcing it into the shape of a jetpack-wearing Pierce leading a squadron of RDPA-wearing aerial snipers to support Charlotte's and Impacts ground assault against the defensive fortifications of a mutant pokebrid colony that's been trying to revive the first Megabrid, an ancient, almost godlike, super-pokebrid with the DNA of over 800 pokemon, some of them not even known. Needless to say, we'll be betrayed, and though our attack will crush the enemy's forces after an intense battle, we'll be delayed just long enough for the ceremony to finish and the Megabrid to rise again from its mountain grave, under the mental control of an ultra-powerful but insane alakazam mutant, cast out for society for his flaws and desperate to use his newfound servant for just one thing: Revenge.

We fight to sever the link between the two, but our physical force can't match the megabrid's, and our mental assaults wither under the medically-augmented Alakazamutant's Mind-Wrath. Irene warns us that Burkmont's launched a tactical nuclear strike against our position, and all seems lost until Charlotte reveals Phantomere's spirit-techniques. Despite our shock, she maintains control of the situation and gives us a do-or-die option, and we choose to do. More precisely, we choose to leave our bodies and attack/possess the Alakazamutant's (goes by the name of Wrath) mind directly, bypassing his augmentations, going straight for the soul. We enter the dark, broken depths of his mind, confront him as he truly is, and our sanity wavers. We fight, we think (though we can't be sure), a dark, seemingly endless fight, as much horriffic violence as is it deathly silence and fear, we confront his insanity, the darkness inside him directly, and we come so close to falling. But we persevere, we hold on, we find out strengths and throw them against him and scream our defiance and eventually he withers and falls, the cracks in his mind widen to swallow him whole, the darkness flees him as he shakes himself apart, and just before he dies, truly, and finally, and we're letting go of his mind, leaving it, we hear one barely-percievable mental 'thank-you', look over our shoulders to see a bright figure, eyes shining with wisdom and intelligence, as he should have been. And we realize that Wrath's been made whole again, has found peace, that whatever else happens, this was worth it.

We return to our bodies to find that just a moment's passed. Wrath is dead, the Megabrid's disturbed, though. He was never meant to be awoken again, and however great his power, his mind is that of a child. A wise, divine child, but a child nonetheless. He wants to go back to sleep, but can't, wants to be away from all this. He tells us of the times past, of creation, of early life, beautiful stories, beautiful songs. And so he remains as we strap on our jet-packs and get on our pokemon and fly the fuck out of there, his songs still echoing through the mountains, and in our hearts, provoking emotion, such powerful emotion. And a few minutes after we've left, we see a few specks fly over the horizon and we hover, transfixed in shock and rage as the screams of a dying god echo from the nuclear fires in our wake, and we weep.

...

That's why I'm making a speech. Because fuck yeah, let's do this thing.

I was not trying to be antagonistic in any manner or fashion. I'm saying that Sweep would not miss and thus waste rage because of Gravity reducing evasion. Unless you're talking about some other comment, but I assure you I had no intention in being antogonistic in any of my recent past posts.

I'd say something along the lines of 'I accept your apology', but that'd be encroaching on Drac's territory (DOUCHEBAG). I wasn't actually serious when I wrote that last bit. Well, kinda. But I sounded way more stern than I actually way. And I wouldn't have been mad if you'd ignored it. Not that you should worry about me being mad, after all, I'M NOT NEARLY AS SMART AS I SEEM TO THINK I AM ISNT THAT RIGHT DRAC WHY YES IT IS AND THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME.

I like one thought, though. You're saying something about evoliths changing the weather...

Part of my problem with the weather thing is that its's so easily accessible for us. Between pokebrids and pokemon and engineers, whenever an opportunity pops up (and they have and will be popping up plentifully), we can take advantage of it. We don't really need to weaken weather moves. We can just reduce the amount of combatants that can use them. That'd keep it strong, but make it way harder to use, and make us really invest in using the weather to our advantage. Not sure how to limit them, but it's more favorable than weakening them, I think.

But I'll think about it. Think about the plan as well. We'll find some way to compromise on the former, and we can finalize the latter tomorrow.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Geminex

It was less just the bands thing, and more the entire 'ridiculously, awesomely over the top' aspect of this RP. I am embracing it! And will perpetuate it! AB mentioned logic, and he's right. There's no logic to be found here. But story-wise, we can make it great anyway.

I guess I'm hesitant on making the RP crazier because I really wanted to make Sophia a rationalist hero.

Pokemon Umbral is where logic goes to die!

Sigh.

Originally Posted by Geminex

And we'll do that best by embracing the crazy and then forcing it into the shape of a jetpack-wearing Pierce leading a squadron of RDPA-wearing aerial snipers to support Charlotte's and Impacts ground assault against the defensive fortifications of a mutant pokebrid colony that's been trying to revive the first Megabrid, an ancient, almost godlike, super-pokebrid with the DNA of over 800 pokemon, some of them not even known. Needless to say, we'll be betrayed, and though our attack will crush the enemy's forces after an intense battle, we'll be delayed just long enough for the ceremony to finish and the Megabrid to rise again from its mountain grave, under the mental control of an ultra-powerful but insane alakazam mutant, cast out for society for his flaws and desperate to use his newfound servant for just one thing: Revenge.

We fight to sever the link between the two, but our physical force can't match the megabrid's, and our mental assaults wither under the medically-augmented Alakazamutant's Mind-Wrath. Irene warns us that Burkmont's launched a tactical nuclear strike against our position, and all seems lost until Charlotte reveals Phantomere's spirit-techniques. Despite our shock, she maintains control of the situation and gives us a do-or-die option, and we choose to do. More precisely, we choose to leave our bodies and attack/possess the Alakazamutant's (goes by the name of Wrath) mind directly, bypassing his augmentations, going straight for the soul. We enter the dark, broken depths of his mind, confront him as he truly is, and our sanity wavers. We fight, we think (though we can't be sure), a dark, seemingly endless fight, as much horriffic violence as is it deathly silence and fear, we confront his insanity, the darkness inside him directly, and we come so close to falling. But we persevere, we hold on, we find out strengths and throw them against him and scream our defiance and eventually he withers and falls, the cracks in his mind widen to swallow him whole, the darkness flees him as he shakes himself apart, and just before he dies, truly, and finally, and we're letting go of his mind, leaving it, we hear one barely-percievable mental 'thank-you', look over our shoulders to see a bright figure, eyes shining with wisdom and intelligence, as he should have been. And we realize that Wrath's been made whole again, has found peace, that whatever else happens, this was worth it.

We return to our bodies to find that just a moment's passed. Wrath is dead, the Megabrid's disturbed, though. He was never meant to be awoken again, and however great his power, his mind is that of a child. A wise, divine child, but a child nonetheless. He wants to go back to sleep, but can't, wants to be away from all this. He tells us of the times past, of creation, of early life, beautiful stories, beautiful songs. And so he remains as we strap on our jet-packs and get on our pokemon and fly the fuck out of there, his songs still echoing through the mountains, and in our hearts, provoking emotion, such powerful emotion. And a few minutes after we've left, we see a few specks fly over the horizon and we hover, transfixed in shock and rage as the screams of a dying god echo from the nuclear fires in our wake, and we weep.

...

That's why I'm making a speech. Because fuck yeah, let's do this thing.

No.

Seriously, no.

That was horrible.

Originally Posted by Geminex

I'd say something along the lines of 'I accept your apology', but that'd be encroaching on Drac's territory (DOUCHEBAG). I wasn't actually serious when I wrote that last bit. Well, kinda. But I sounded way more stern than I actually way. And I wouldn't have been mad if you'd ignored it. Not that you should worry about me being mad, after all, I'M NOT NEARLY AS SMART AS I SEEM TO THINK I AM ISNT THAT RIGHT DRAC WHY YES IT IS AND THANK YOU FOR REMINDING ME.

If you're really that grateful, I can think of plenty of ways you can repay me.

Originally Posted by Geminex

I like one thought, though. You're saying something about evoliths changing the weather...

Part of my problem with the weather thing is that its's so easily accessible for us. Between pokebrids and pokemon and engineers, whenever an opportunity pops up (and they have and will be popping up plentifully), we can take advantage of it. We don't really need to weaken weather moves. We can just reduce the amount of combatants that can use them. That'd keep it strong, but make it way harder to use, and make us really invest in using the weather to our advantage. Not sure how to limit them, but it's more favorable than weakening them, I think.

But I'll think about it. Think about the plan as well. We'll find some way to compromise on the former, and we can finalize the latter tomorrow.

Maybe limit weather moves to only be available to pokemon of the type associated with it?

Y'know, only Rock pokemon can use Sandstorm, only Ice can use Hail and so on.

[Geminex]

No.

Seriously, no.

That was horrible.

Oh come on, that was great. It had everything a story needs, and it still ignored logic with wild abandon! Did you even read it all?
But okay, show me if you can do better. And no, I was the one who thought up your sidequest, that doesn't count.

Maybe limit weather moves to only be available to pokemon of the type associated with it?

It's a start. Pokebrids are my main problem, though. Let's see...

If you're really that grateful, I can think of plenty of ways you can repay me.

Repay you, what do you mean, how-?
...
Oh god, you're not wearing any pants, are you?

I guess I'm hesitant on making the RP crazier because I really wanted to make Sophia a rationalist hero.

I think Impact is about at rationalist as you can get without being completely insane in this RP.

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Ice is super effective against lots of shit, bring out 4 ice users, use one hailstorm, and bam. Plus 50% times 4, gives us an extra 200% damage, -100% for the use of the storm. And that's just a few examples.

My problem isn't with the inherent power of weather moves. But with the fact that, with the battles we're fighting, we're really likely to come across situations where a weather move will be massively more valuable than a damage-dealing attack. And while I'm all for encouraging the use of stuff other than damage-dealers, I don't think that the support moves should be that much more powerful than the damage moves. There's a discrepancy, one which really wasn't there in the games, and one that's placing rather too much of an emphasis on weather moves.

You might want to be re-read all the specific arguments I made before regarding weather. Hail does NOT have a helping hand effect to Ice type moves. In fact, Hail is possibly the weakest weather condition. Only Sunny Day and Rain Dance have helping hand effects, and only for fire and water type respectively.

Weather conditions are actually a huge deal in competitive online play in the games. It's not as important in typical story mode due to having to fight several foes in a row. But in competitive online play, being able to use or deal with weather is vital.

Maybe limit weather moves to only be available to pokemon of the type associated with it?

Y'know, only Rock pokemon can use Sandstorm, only Ice can use Hail and so on.

No. Unfair. Especially so for Matthias who has Castform who is normal type but depends on the weather for his abilities. I already suggested limiting it so it only last for 2 turns or 3.

Both of you are making your arguments on the premise that it has been onesided so far. That's only because AB hasn't decided to use them in favor of the foes yet and because we always ambush the foes and gain initiative. If we didn't ambush all the foes, then thus foes could set up with all sort of favorable conditions, then it would be balanced without having to alter the moves at all.

[Geminex]

No. Unfair. Especially so for Matthias who has Castform who is normal type but depends on the weather for his abilities.

Not unfair. Castform'd get special arrangements, obviously. Though we'd have to see of what sort. And well, it's unfair already, what with how strong weather moves are now. We need to find a...
Balance.

Weather conditions are actually a huge deal in competitive online play in the games. It's not as important in typical story mode due to having to fight several foes in a row. But in competitive online play, being able to use or deal with weather is vital.

Exactly. Weather is already really important in 1v1. Its influence is even more massive in multi-battles. We should limit that.
And fair enough on hail. Still does pretty good damge, though.

[Menarker]

It is unfair. Period. What about Grass pokemons? They aren't fire type, but they use Sunny Day to good effect and some of them use rain dance too. Toxicroak benefits from Rain Dance with its ability despite not being water or electric type. Electric pokemons may want to use Rain Dance for Thunder. That's what it's there for. Pokemons are meant to be diverse in variety and in being able to pull tactics of various types. Lucario is a special attacker primarily, but it can also serve as a good pysical attacker if given the chance such as with Sword Dance. Same with weather. The combination and freedom of moves are essential to the entire premise of the franchise of pokemon. Otherwise, types and base stats would be all that matter.

You fail OVER and OVER to consider that weather is double ended and all that is needed to balance it is for the enemy teams to be built to take advantage of weather. Give them weapons that can take advantage of sunny day or rain dance, so if we try to use it, they can use it right back at us. Have the Watchmen come into combat where the weather is already preset. Easily done, balancing without changing any rules.

But taking away moves from pokemons and pokebrids IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. This is not something that should be allowed half way through the series after several levels have passed and we have pretty much invested in our levels. This inconviences Drac, myself, Bard and Dante who have invested in levels of pokebrid or trainers where weather is a benefit of some of the pokemons we choose. I will bring this up to AB and protest if I have to, but I'm adamant that you have gone overboard in this. Your balance sense is utterly aschewed. Heck, you are the only one who doesn't suffer because you don't lose any moves or abilities with what you are proposing.

Mind you, I think one of the biggest reasons why you think weather is unfair is because switching pokemons is a free action and thus we could switch pokemons to match the weather and attack for the best element in the same turn. Increased flexibility that wasn't present in the games. Normally in the games, pokemons being switched wasted a turn and thus caused delays in the offense which result in danger of being attacked. That isn't present here.


Seriously, play several rounds of Battle Frontier in the Pokemon Factory in the games. You'll see that pokemons are built using so many variety of builds and tactics, some of them seemingly counterintutive but useful in the right hand. Your sense of balance threathens a huge part of the entire point of the entire theme of Pokemon.

[Geminex]

You fail OVER and OVER to consider that weather is double ended and all that is needed to balance it is for the enemy teams to be built to take advantage of weather. Give them weapons that can take advantage of sunny day or rain dance, so if we try to use it, they can use it right back at us. Have the Watchmen come into combat where the weather is already preset. Easily done, balancing without changing any rules.

Look, AB doesn't have that much time to begin with. You're honestly saying he should spend even more time thinking about the enemy team composition and modifying it so that it can effectively counter dozens of our strategies? Seriously?
That's your definition of 'easily done'? 'Making the Dm do more work'? Nice.

And I I understand what you mean. You're not getting my point. Yes, weather is double-ended. But we will be definition only use weather when we benefit more from it than the enemy. And since weather is so abundant, whenever there is an opportunity to use weather to our advantage, we can take it. That's the whole problem. Sure, there'll be opportunities when using the weather would be a really bad idea. But in that situation, we just won't use weather.

But taking away moves from pokemons IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Uhm...
Why not?

It is unfair. Period. What about Grass pokemons? They aren't fire type, but they use Sunny Day to good effect and some of them use rain dance too. Toxicroak benefits from Rain Dance with its ability despite not being water or electric type. Electric pokemons may want to use Rain Dance for Thunder. That's what it's there for. Pokemons are meant to be diverse in variety and in being able to pull tactics of various types. Lucario is a special attacker primarily, but it can also serve as a good pysical attacker if given the chance such as with Sword Dance. Same with weather. The combination and freedom of moves are essential to the entire premise of the franchise of pokemon. Otherwise, types and base stats would be all that matter.

This relies on outliers and hyperbola. Sure, it'll weaken a couple of pokemon a bit. But that's, like, 10 or 20 out of 500. And we don't even use most, if any, of those. Sure, it gets imbalanced in some ways again, but on the whole, the situation would improve.

And yeah, sure. Pokemon is based on variety. And we're not saying that henceforth only moves of the same type as the attacking pokemon can be used. We're talking about weather moves. A tiny subset of the precious variety. Taking that away won't really, y'know, do much to variety.

[Bard The 5th LW]

I believe that weather is fine as it is.

When I said I supported the band thing, I was not being serious.

[Dracorion]

Yeah, Menarker, I didn't mean that Matthias's Castform should get shafted.

Hell, the Castform pokemon itself should still have access to weather moves.

I was just proposing as a general rule that weather moves should only be available to pokemon of their corresponding type. Exceptions would be permitted.

That said, I really only proposed it to shut Geminex up. I still think they're fine.

Because fuck you Gem that's why.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Oh come on, that was great. It had everything a story needs, and it still ignored logic with wild abandon! Did you even read it all?
But okay, show me if you can do better. And no, I was the one who thought up your sidequest, that doesn't count.

You didn't actually do that much for this sidequest.

I'm not saying you didn't do anything, but yeah.

I believe what you said was "Pierce was actually working for Faynoc! Gets pissed, goes to their secret base." But the details, stuff like characterization? The stuff that makes a story a STORY? That's all me.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Repay you, what do you mean, how-?
...
Oh god, you're not wearing any pants, are you?

I'm sayin'.

Quit with the thanking. Or to put it another way, don't let your mouth write checks your ass can't cash.

Originally Posted by Geminex

I think Impact is about at rationalist as you can get without being completely insane in this RP.

Impact is horrible.

I meant, Sophia would've been a real rationalist.

She could still be one, theoretically, except she'd have to conveniently turn it off whenever something happens that AB has no explanation for.

So she'd be a horrible rationalist.

Also, if Impact is a rationalist then Pierce is a marmot.

Or a Dewgong. I think that's as close to a Marmot as you can get in pokemon.



AB, have you considered incorporating weather effects into future enemies' strategies? Doesn't have to be anything overly complicated, mind you.

Also, this isn't a request, just a question.

[Menarker]

It does! Especially in the setting where double pokemon battles means pokemons work as a team. I could have Togekiss use Rain Dance so Swampert who is fighting alongside Togekiss could use Waterfall for increased damage.

Teamwork aspect is a huge part of it. Pokemons have options of using moves outside their elements because trainers choose to capture and raise 6 pokemons to co-exist and fight together using moves to supplement a tactic which takes in consideration their strengths and weaknesses!

As for AB, I'd be willing to propose or write up battle set-ups if he really wanted to, make it balanced and tough on you guys. But seriously, it's not like he needs to builds teams that counters all the plans all the time. But most of the battles have been unique. Weapon X, Pokemercs, swarms, huge foes, that sort of thing. And how hard is it to have a few slayers or pokemons have Fire or water type moves and declare that *insert weather* is up on the field when battle started? Maybe have a semi-sniper like character who is playing weather support to screw us over.

I'm not using Hyperbole since that is the REALITY. And Outliners are constantly present in the RP. Togekiss? A special attacker flyer in a world where those are ULTRA RARE. Electric pokemon with slow speed stat? Magnezone and Luxray, despite how electric pokemons are almost all speed types. Offensive psychic pokemons like Metagross? There ya go!

Seriously, think outside your character. Pierce has two pokemons who summons weather. Matthias has a character that relies on weather and is a total outlier. Renny as I pointed out has several outliners and pokemons that operate as a team. You're advocating a nerf that drastically effects everyone's character but your own negatively after we have invested several levels in the classes where weather is supposed to be one of the offered benefits and thus one of the reasons we may have chosen the class in the first place.

Seriously, weathers may be a subset of variety. but that is what VARIETY MEANS. Different types. Different effects. Taking it away takes away from variety.

But look... shall we drop the topic? Bard thinks its fine, Drac thinks its fine, I insist it's fine. I dunno about Matthias, but given how his character has a character and a signature technique that focuses on weather, I think he would be fine with not nerfing it too. You are the only one who thinks it needs editing.