Prometheus

[Magus]

Well, I know Scott said he wanted it to be viewed as mostly separate from the Alien franchise, but then he tacked on that scene at the end with the Xenomorph being born, so I think it bears examination.

I personally just assumed that after the xenomorph was born another Engineer went to the planet at some point in the future, got infected, and then crash landed on LV-426 (or whatever it was in the first Alien movie). This just provides an explanation for how the xenomorphs were created as opposed to how that ship with that Engineer gets to LV-426. It is silly that they seemed to shy away from this one last facet of Alien, but I don't see anything in the movie retconning that or creating a plot hole as far as that goes. The movie itself has plot holes in why some of the characters act the way they do, but not necessarily the Alien franchise as a whole.

The movie seems to be starting a new offshoot regarding the Engineers, though. The stuff with the xenomorph is just an extra thing to establish it takes place in the same universe as the Alien/Predator franchises.

EDIT: Wait are you saying its a reboot, Lumenskir, or totally unconnected? It's not really a reboot, and I think it definitely has the old Alien continuity in mind and I think Damon Lindelof had it in mind when he wrote the script. But as you said I don't think the Alien franchise is really the main point of the movie, rather starting a new, connected, yet separate franchise.

[BloodyMage]

The point was to show where the Space Jockey came from and what it was. David, the android, explicitly mentions at one point that there are other crafts which he thinks he can pilot. I think we're meant to assume that the craft found in the original alien film is one of those other ships which had an outbreak of Xenomorph mid-flight.

But I do agree that this was a bad film on a few levels. While the film is visually impressive, I think Scott's attempt to tackle the big questions of the universe meant that characterisation and story suffered a little. There were 17 members on board Prometheus but I think only about four of them had any proper characterisation. Fassbender and Theon were by far the stand out actors but the rest were one note and practically had fodder written on their foreheads. Unlike the original Alien film, Prometheushad no sustained and singular threat. In Alien, the Xenomorph rips it's way out of a guy's chest, everyone goes looking for it and ends up dead. But at least we know what the threat is and that it's dangerous. In Prometheus the danger that needs them to get back to the ship quickly is a storm. Then there's a infected earth worm which kills a guy while the geologist falls face first into liquid. Then David poisons Charlie. Then the geologist returns, infected, and has to be killed with fire. Then Shaw is revealed to be pregnant. She cuts it out and leaves it in the spare medical bay. Then they go visit the Engineer who decides he doesn't want to talk and the best way to wake up after his nap is a killing spree. It seriously feels like the film is out of focus, like Scott wanted to do a philosophical film but wanted action and horror elements but couldn't decided on what would be the cause.

While it's certainly not horrible, it's also not that good either. It has some major flaws that keep it from being as entertaining as I'd really have liked it to be.

[Lumenskir]

Wait are you saying its a reboot, Lumenskir, or totally unconnected? It's not really a reboot, and I think it definitely has the old Alien continuity in mind and I think Damon Lindelof had it in mind when he wrote the script. But as you said I don't think the Alien franchise is really the main point of the movie, rather starting a new, connected, yet separate franchise.

Basically, when complaints about the 'plot' start to mention cross-movie details, my first thought is just to pretend that it's a reboot/unconnected from the earlier movies. Aside from cosmetic details, nothing in this movie has to directly connect to Alien Prime, so I'm perfectly fine treating it like a separate story with familiar elements (the same as I treated X-Men: First Class last year).

Personally, I really think Scott + Co. are treating this like a distinct universe, mostly because of how the Weyland corporation was treated. In Alien Prime (or really, Alien and Aliens) the xenos were really just the most present threat, the real evil was the corporation forcing all of the danger (the whole "The xenos might be horrible, but they're not fucking each other over for a percentage" deal). In Prometheus they don't ever really mention profit, and people are disposable only in so far as they advance personal, mortal goals (or, in the case of David, if they just piss off the wrong person at the wrong time). I think Prometheus, and whatever sequels it generates, won't deal with the same issues Alien and Aliens did, so I can perfectly accept that they don't have to inexorably lead to setting up what we saw in the originals.

But I do agree that this was a bad film on a few levels. While the film is visually impressive, I think Scott's attempt to tackle the big questions of the universe meant that characterisation and story suffered a little.

While I don't think it's a great film on the level of either Alien or Aliens, I really did like it, and would put it on the level of Inception (in the "Movies I'm almost forced to watch all the way through if I stumble upon them while channel surfing" division).

BUT, I do realize that this film ticks a number of boxes for me that can be frustrating/infuriating for others. For instance, I personally love that Weyland spent a trillion dollars to attempt to cheat death and get immortality from what he considered gods, only to be bludgeoned to death for his troubles. The entire movie, to me, seemed to be about how narcissistic and hubristic humans could be, and Weyland was the perfect example of presenting petty problems and mindsets to the unknown and expecting it to conform to your wishes. However, I'm well aware that the entire plotline was both sudden, shallow, and a little jarring in how eager it was to shoot that particular shaggy dog, it just tickled me.

It seriously feels like the film is out of focus, like Scott wanted to do a philosophical film but wanted action and horror elements but couldn't decided on what would be the cause.

If you treat each individual threat like the main threat then yes, it is a little scattershot, but I think the main point was that the humans arrived on the planet and then proceeded to act like they owned the place, whereupon the environment (dangerous weather, foreign substances, resident life forms, etc.) proceeded to knock that idea right the fuck out of their heads.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

In Prometheus they don't ever really mention profit, and people are disposable only in so far as they advance personal, mortal goals (or, in the case of David, if they just piss off the wrong person at the wrong time).

No one is talking about profit because this exploration was designed to go to a foreign planet and look for lifeforms. And Weyland is on board, looking for something to sustain his life. In Alien, most of the craft members weren't aware of the true mission, so started complaining they get paid to drill mines, not investigate distress signals and Weyland secretly ordered the mission to find Xenomorphs so that they could be brought back for experimentation. It's less to do with how Weyland Industries is treated and more to do with a difference in situation. Not to mention, Prometheus is set before the Weyland-Yutani merger.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

The entire movie, to me, seemed to be about how narcissistic and hubristic humans could be, and Weyland was the perfect example of presenting petty problems and mindsets to the unknown and expecting it to conform to your wishes.

Except that should have been prevalent from the beginning. Infact Shaw and Charlie come across as wide eyed idealists when going to the planet with everyone else basically going along because they're ordered to. No one seems particularly narcissistic or think they have any right to be there. I'm also not sure that 'how do I prolong life?' is a petty problem. It'd have more practical applications than 'why did you create us?', I'd imagine. I would still suggest that Scott just wanted a film about the bigger questions in life but was too busy trying to direct those ideas rather than a story with interesting characters or a focused plot. Which leads to...

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

If you treat each individual threat like the main threat then yes, it is a little scattershot, but I think the main point was that the humans arrived on the planet and then proceeded to act like they owned the place, whereupon the environment (dangerous weather, foreign substances, resident life forms, etc.) proceeded to knock that idea right the fuck out of their heads.

I'm not treating individual threats like the main threat. I'm treating individual threats as individual threats because I'm criticising the film for lacking a main threat. And they really didn't act like they owned the planet. Shaw was extremely cautious by telling them not to bring weaponry and suggesting that the not touch anything. But David was following different orders. The entire film was actually based on the idea that actually they didn't own anything. The Engineers created them and if they wanted to find out something they needed help from their creators. A prouder race would have stayed on Earth and thought 'Screw the Engineers, we can figure it out ourselves'.

[Magus]

Well if we want to talk the nitty gritty of the plot the film is not as tightly focused as Alien. They go back to the cave, what, five times? In the original Alien they went to the ship once, got infected, the xenomorph got out, and most of the rest of the film was about dealing with getting picked off one by one. In this movie we got a zillion different issues at hand, from the meaning of life to the origins of man to the meaning of sentience for artificial beings (in the case of the android David who is continually said to be "soulless", even to his face, despite expressing seemingly human emotions). The scale is way greater than Alien and that's probably why it lacks the same focus. It's not as tight as Alien thematically. In Alien and Blade Runner, Scott focused on one or two themes at most (corporatization, artificial intelligence, what it means to be human). In this movie he's easily got a half dozen.

[Lumenskir]

It's less to do with how Weyland Industries is treated and more to do with a difference in situation.

I'm just saying that they could have easily made the focus of the mission profit-driven with very minor tweaks, but they seem to have made a choice to depict the mission as being primarily idea/personal based.

Except that should have been prevalent from the beginning. Infact Shaw and Charlie come across as wide eyed idealists when going to the planet with everyone else basically going along because they're ordered to.

They start as idealistic, but a lot of their actions are borne out of them thinking that they can handle these new and exciting situations, and that things would proceed according to plan. You mention Shaw telling that one guy not to bring a gun along, but that's because she was under the impression that they would be meeting people who wanted to hug them, not kill them. The second they find out they can breathe they take off their helmets and strut around the mysterious vases. Shaw's first thought when they're studying the Engineer's head is to stimulate it back to life and see what happens, which literally blows up in her face.

And while the crew might not have been hubristic to come along, they don't ever treat the situation with the gravity/awe it properly deserves.

I'm also not sure that 'how do I prolong life?' is a petty problem.

I guess I was treating it mostly from how Weyland was presenting it: He admitted he had at most a few days left to live, and he spent a fortune trying to cheat his way out of something inevitable. Petty might not be the right word, but he did display a sense of entitlement that he had done so much and deserved to have this ostensible God treat him with the respect he expected.

I'm not treating individual threats like the main threat. I'm treating individual threats as individual threats because I'm criticising the film for lacking a main threat.

I'm just saying that the environment IS the main threat, and it's composed of a bunch of smaller threats.

A prouder race would have stayed on Earth and thought 'Screw the Engineers, we can figure it out ourselves'.

I don't know, from the way Holloway gets so drunk and depressed once they think all of the Engineers are dead, I got the sense he was expecting to arrive on the planet and be treated as a long lost son. I mean, just the fact that they took the markings as an invitation implies pride ("Oooh, we figured out the code, they definitely want to see us.")

In this movie he's easily got a half dozen.

I think that's why I went to an Inception comparison, because both of them raise a number of really deep concerns, but are both ultimately concerned with being a fun movie rather than answering the questions they've raised (which, really, is what this discussion is supposed to do).

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I'm just saying that they could have easily made the focus of the mission profit-driven with very minor tweaks, but they seem to have made a choice to depict the mission as being primarily idea/personal based.

That's because Scott was focusing on the themes of who we are and where we come from, so it would make sense for the characters to be personally motivated. But, aside from Shaw, he doesn't properly develop this in any of the characters.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

They start as idealistic, but a lot of their actions are borne out of them thinking that they can handle these new and exciting situations, and that things would proceed according to plan. You mention Shaw telling that one guy not to bring a gun along, but that's because she was under the impression that they would be meeting people who wanted to hug them, not kill them. The second they find out they can breathe they take off their helmets and strut around the mysterious vases. Shaw's first thought when they're studying the Engineer's head is to stimulate it back to life and see what happens, which literally blows up in her face.

She told him not to bring the gun because walking into an foreign building with a weapon sends the wrong signal. She was expecting these beings to be cognitive and sensitive to reasoning rather than irrationally destructive as they turned out to be. For instance, if a man comes into another my house with a gun I'd be more on edge than if he didn't. And they don't strut once they take the helmets off. They're still wandering aimlessly around the caves until David figures out the markings are buttons. Shaw only attempts to stimulate the head because she and the other scientist notice that, actually, the head seems to be regenerating. Although, honestly, that moment felt like it was really just meant to be a nod to the first Alien film where they reboot the android's head.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

And while the crew might not have been hubristic to come along, they don't ever treat the situation with the gravity/awe it properly deserves.

I actually found the crew extremely quick to accept Shaw's premise that they were created by aliens based on cave drawings. At most the cave drawings suggest the alien's visited Earth but her idea that they created humans is complete conjecture. But everyone is accepting almost as soon as they see the building or the dead alien. Even the DNA doesn't prove anything other than the fact that DNA like humans is sustainable on a planet like Earth. I'm not sure how the situation deserves awe though. Should they have been bowing or something?

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Petty might not be the right word, but he did display a sense of entitlement that he had done so much and deserved to have this ostensible God treat him with the respect he expected.

I think he just didn't want to die. When you consider most major religions, evading death is normally a part of the package, albeit normally though a spiritual eternity. But they did, apparently, physically create humans, so it wouldn't be beyond reason to ask them if they could solve certain physical conditions. I don't think it was a sense of entitlement but it felt like he was desperate not to die and these beings were his last option. Pity is what you should feel for him.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I'm just saying that the environment IS the main threat, and it's composed of a bunch of smaller threats.

Except the engineers aren't apart of the environment. This isn't even their planet either. It's implied they just went there to set up a military base. The infected earth worms aren't apart of the environment. Again, they're part of the terraforming experiments. And the geologist getting infected was due to his ingesting the liquid brought to the planet by the engineers. The only attack by the environment is the storm and it's more of an obstacle that just delays the mission. It doesn't actually hurt anyone.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I don't know, from the way Holloway gets so drunk and depressed once they think all of the Engineers are dead, I got the sense he was expecting to arrive on the planet and be treated as a long lost son. I mean, just the fact that they took the markings as an invitation implies pride ("Oooh, we figured out the code, they definitely want to see us.")

Actually, it was Shaw who considered it an invitation. Holloway was disappointed to find out that their creators were dead. I don't think he expected to be treated as a long lost son, he just wanted to opportunity to speak to one of them face to face, which is probably a desire most people would have if presented with the possibility a physical creator.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I think that's why I went to an Inception comparison, because both of them raise a number of really deep concerns, but are both ultimately concerned with being a fun movie rather than answering the questions they've raised (which, really, is what this discussion is supposed to do).

Except my point is this is not a fun movie because it focuses on the questions more than the fun part. I agree with the Inception comparison and that Inception manages to entertain while playing with dream tropes. But what I'm saying is that Prometheus failed to strike the balance.

[Lumenskir]

But they did, apparently, physically create humans, so it wouldn't be beyond reason to ask them if they could solve certain physical conditions. I don't think it was a sense of entitlement but it felt like he was desperate not to die and these beings were his last option. Pity is what you should feel for him.

I don't know, I got a definite sense of "I'm rich, I deserve to cheat death." Especially since his conversation with the Engineer was contrasted with Shaw trying to question it about why they wanted to kill all humans, and he just wanted to live a little longer.

Except the engineers aren't apart of the environment. This isn't even their planet either. It's implied they just went there to set up a military base. The infected earth worms aren't apart of the environment. Again, they're part of the terraforming experiments. And the geologist getting infected was due to his ingesting the liquid brought to the planet by the engineers. The only attack by the environment is the storm and it's more of an obstacle that just delays the mission. It doesn't actually hurt anyone.

...I didn't mean just the natural phenomena native to the planet, I meant the overall surrounding events and items of where they landed. Like, the environment of a shopping mall includes the other shoppers and stores and stuff, not just the natural land it's built on.

Except my point is this is not a fun movie because it focuses on the questions more than the fun part.

But the Big Questions part of it is frontloaded, and by the end they're all facing the far more pressing concerns of, like, C-Sectioning a vagina monster out of themselves, killing their zombie coworkers, and fighting the Engineers, which I found really fun to watch. It's not like it becomes the end of Evangelion at any point.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Hawk

This whole thing was AvP Requiem level bad

Hawk? No. No, Hawk. Just no. No no no.

Nothing is as bad as AvP Requiem. You are, by all means, free to dislike this movie for all sorts of valid reasons, but that sort of ludicrous hyperbole simply will not stand.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

I don't know, I got a definite sense of "I'm rich, I deserve to cheat death." Especially since his conversation with the Engineer was contrasted with Shaw trying to question it about why they wanted to kill all humans, and he just wanted to live a little longer.

While I agree he was meant to be contrasted with Shaw, I think it's left entirely open who was right. You can side with Weyland and his mindful practicality with which approaches the Engineer or you can side with Shaw who wanted to have more lofty questions such as 'why do we live' and 'why do we die answered.' The film doesn't come down on either side, although Shaw lives. The Engineer attempts to kill them both indiscriminately.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

...I didn't mean just the natural phenomena native to the planet, I meant the overall surrounding events and items of where they landed. Like, the environment of a shopping mall includes the other shoppers and stores and stuff, not just the natural land it's built on.

Except the simile should be a shopping mall occupied by swat teams and each room in the mall has a different swat member wielding increasingly larger and more lethal weaponry. Shoppers and stores would still be a natural occurrence but in Prometheus every major threat has very little to do with the planet they're on and more due to the military base they're unwittingly investigating. Unlike Alien, which had one sustained threat which came from the alien spacecraft, we're initially lead to believe this planet belongs to the engineers, then that they're all dead, then the infected worms, then the infected geologist and then the awakened engineer. It minimises the effectiveness of the threat to the viewer if we are constantly introduced to new threats rather than one prevalent threat, like in Alien. As a result, with out one singular threat as the focal point the danger presented in Prometheus felt out of focus.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

But the Big Questions part of it is frontloaded, and by the end they're all facing the far more pressing concerns of, like, C-Sectioning a vagina monster out of themselves, killing their zombie coworkers, and fighting the Engineers, which I found really fun to watch. It's not like it becomes the end of Evangelion at any point.

Apart the the fact that they go into the cockpit and confront the Engineer with those exact big questions? The big questions are most certainly kept at the front and centre of the plot. The questions should have been dropped as soon as they found their co-worker dead and begun to realise that this was now a battle for survival.