Boycott Atlus

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

So my proposed hypothetical homophobic story characters are only acceptable if I also include a soap-box PSA about it? Nope. Realism is realism. Its not everybody's job to be Aesop in all places and all things and all times. I've read plenty of stories that took place in an older America where there was abundant racism and never a deliberate slap on the wrist about it. Doesn't mean I think racism is just peachy, it just means that this particular author would rather deliver a realistic narrative than be preachy.

Was Mark Twain preachy in his books? He delivered a realistic portrayal of America back then, but as it turns out, racism being correct isn't realistic! So, he showed all that racism, but also showed, "Hey, wait, those dudes were actually wrong." If you're delivering a realistic portrayal of the world, your portrayal WILL show that the bigotry was wrong, because realistically speaking, it is.

You don't have to beat your reader over the head while standing on a soapbox to do it. Again, look at Mark Twain. TONS of rampant racism going on, but he just demonstrated it to be wrong by the facts of the story, without going, "LOOK AT RACIST JOE GET STABBED THROUGH THE EYE WITH A RUSTY SPORK!"

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Displaying homophobia as a character flaw =/= making the story into an Aesop fable.
Hell, I'm pretty sure Mark Twain of all writers was prescient enough, even in his era, to portray racism as a character flaw in Huckleberry Finn, and Finn didn't read like an Aesop fable.

...I'm not convinced you're remotely understanding what I'm actually saying.

EDIT: Pip Boy logic: "How dare stories have themes or messages in them! I want my stories to attempt to teach readers absolutely nothing!!!"

Damn you Snake, stealing my examples.

[CABAL49]

Man, Pip. Women are just as sexually active as men. Lesbians totally have sex too. But if women are open about their sexuality, they become whores.

[Pip Boy]

Im not talking about how sexually active they are, Im talking about how the literal hormones that are in their biology that have a very real influence on their behavior make them less susceptible to that being exploited in the same way for advertising. I think if advertisers really thought they could get more money from women by slathering their products in cock, they wouldn't hesitate.

[Jagos]

Originally Posted by Sifright

Seriously we are going to bring fucking realism into this shit in a story about magical tv murder where the characters get to literally fight their 'inner fears and insecurities'

You really couldn't reach any harder to excuse this shit, because that is what you are trying to do excuse the fact that the game is transphobic and pretend it's okay due to a veneer of realism when it really isn't.

Sifright, I don't believe that's what Pip is saying. Sometimes homophobia isn't punished and the one doing the torturing is let of the hook for it. Sometimes it happens. It seems from Atlus' games, they handle this really badly by having no karmic punch, as SS is pointing out, to show the societal norms of being intolerant. It would be the same thing if you put race into a game and had someone being openly racist with no redeeming qualities.

If Atlus wants to cover these issues, it should begin to make protagonists that change to be better people as well as show more karmic retribution instead of karma houdini behavior. (To which I agree.)

Damn you speed demons!

Mark Twain

One note for MT. He stopped his characters from being racist by just a little. Notice how you don't see them throwing around racial epithets which allows them to be malleable to change at least somewhat. The reader sees them as horrible, but Mark Twain at least knew the boundary that allowed for people to remember his stories over those of his competitors at the time. Just sayin.

[Pip Boy]

I really can't tell at this point whether Im just wording everything I say in the worst possible way or if you guys have just decided to take it that way to make me into the jackass bad guy you can hate. Maybe its my fault, really. Either way, Im out.

[CABAL49]

No, they get horny just like us. But most advertising isn't catered towards them.

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Jagos

Sifright, I don't believe that's what Pip is saying. Sometimes homophobia isn't punished and the one doing the torturing is let of the hook for it. Sometimes it happens. It seems from Atlus' games, they handle this really badly by having no karmic punch, as SS is pointing out, to show the societal norms of being intolerant. It would be the same thing if you put race into a game and had someone being openly racist with no redeeming qualities.

If Atlus wants to cover these issues, it should begin to make protagonists that change to be better people as well as show more karmic retribution instead of karma houdini behavior. (To which I agree.)

It doesn't even need karmic retribution there are tonnes of ways to show it's wrong and shouldn't be done with out even punishing the character in that way


How about showing Naotos feelings how much it hurts him to be treated that way?

How about Kanjis thoughts on HIS FRIENDS wanting to beat the shit out of him because he is gay.

Those are very very simple ways of showing that something isn't right with out ever preaching just enable the audience to empathize with the character in question. This doesn't happen.

[rpgdemon]

My point with Mark Twain is that to show racism is wrong you don't have to resort to heavy handed behavior. The point is though, if a character is going to be a bigot, realistically speaking there will be negative consequences to someone, and if you're not showing those consequences, you're not being realistic.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

I really can't tell at this point whether Im just wording everything I say in the worst possible way

Yes, you are.

Maybe its my fault, really.

Well as long as you continue to argue that it's totes okay to put bigotry in the media and hold it up as a good thing in the name of ~*realism*~, then yes, it will continue being your fault. I mean you're welcome to your opinion, and they are welcome to continue to dismantle it because, completely honestly speaking, it's a terrible opinion.

Either way, Im done with a thread where I have to submit everything I say to a PR panel to make sure there is nothing that can be warped askew with sensationalist slant. Peace out.

Probably for the best.