The Unpopular Opinions

[Osterbaum]

pocheros sucks. That's my unpopular opinion.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

This thread sucks. That's not an unpopular opinion, just an obvious observation.

[Marc v4.0]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

Except it's more like finding a sign that says 'DON'T JUMP DOWN THIS HOLE', avoiding that hole and jumping down the next one and dying anyway, because actually the game made it difficult to go north, told me one area was pretty suicidal, and even by avoiding that area it still turned out to be suicidal.

Which is pretty much a symptom of a larger problem. As I've said before, it felt like the game was telling me to go back, and follow the pre-set path of Goodsprings - Primm - Nipton - Novac. From there it opens up, but that's not really a good role playing game. I should have the freedom to go where where I want in a roleplaying sand box game, which is why I prefer Fallout 3. After you left the vault you were encouraged to go Megaton but the game never really tried to stop you if you felt inclined to walk all the way to the Republic of Dave. You were specifically told there were Death Claws at Old Olney which you could avoid without any trouble at all. I'm not saying it's too hard, I'm saying it was intentionally harder than it should have been just to force you, the player, on to the path the game designers wanted you on. That's what made it less enjoyable for me.

Dangerous animals generally don't settle in places with the intent of making us all feel better but the point remains that it is only one section of the direct north route that is blocked off, the other being not even half that dangerous a prospect.

I don't really understand it. Deathclaws in 3 weren't a huge deal because they were way the fuck out in the middle of nowhere and easy to completely avoid..and that was a problem. Why bother having a dangerous creature if you can completely ignore the existance of it? Why have it if the risk to encounter it is nill?

Really, this isn't some new thing to RPGs, some places have really tough monsters, and some of those places can be right next door. Fallout 1 and 2 had high level Mutant/Raider patrols and Enclave patrols that would pen you away from certain spots and mean almost certain death if you tried to go that way before you were tough enough to kill them. You could get past them, but it was a lot of risk in order to actually cut yourself off from a lot of the story.

[pochercoaster]

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

pocheros sucks. That's my unpopular opinion.

Osterbaum sucks. Wait, this thread is for UNpopular opinions...

Edit: Also I'm too late for this, but guys look at my avatar, what could possibly be wrong with Lady Gaga's face?

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

Dangerous animals generally don't settle in places with the intent of making us all feel better but the point remains that it is only one section of the direct north route that is blocked off, the other being not even half that dangerous a prospect.

Except I keep telling you it is as dangerous because I've experienced it, and a few other people have at least confirmed that the area does exist. I realise that keeping them in one area isn't realistic but at least it would be a true statement to say 'deathclaws are in the quarry' which implied that to avoid the quarry is to avoid deathclaws, but that's proven to be an untrue statement. That was annoying. I'm not really playing Fallout for realism anyway.

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

I don't really understand it. Deathclaws in 3 weren't a huge deal because they were way the fuck out in the middle of nowhere and easy to completely avoid..and that was a problem. Why bother having a dangerous creature if you can completely ignore the existance of it? Why have it if the risk to encounter it is nill?

Until you played Broken Steel which put you right in the middle of them. Even before that, the game did have a system of scaling. The Deathclaws at the very start were in Old Olney and there was one near Dunwich Building, and there was also a nest somewhere else I think, but none would ever randomly spawn. By level ten you'd find a lot more Yao Gui and by level 20 the only creatures you'd ever really come into contact with were Mirelurk Kings, Deathclaws and Supermutant Masters because those were the only things that ever spawned. In Broken steel, by 30 you'd only come across deathclaws, albino radscorpians, overlords and reavers. So the risk of encounter really wasn't nil at all.

Of course, you could go to old Olney at level one if you wanted, but you were neither deterred nor forced to go there. In New Vegas, you're deterred from going North because that's where they are, specifically the quarry but as stated also in other parts, so the game is pretty much telling you to do the Goodsprings - Primm - Nipton - Novac route.

Originally Posted by Marc v1.0

Really, this isn't some new thing to RPGs, some places have really tough monsters, and some of those places can be right next door. Fallout 1 and 2 had high level Mutant/Raider patrols and Enclave patrols that would pen you away from certain spots and mean almost certain death if you tried to go that way before you were tough enough to kill them. You could get past them, but it was a lot of risk in order to actually cut yourself off from a lot of the story.

I'm aware it isn't new. I haven't played much of Fallout 2, but I know in Fallout 1, upon leaving vault 13 you were advised to go to Shady Sands but there was nothing really stopping bypassing it and going to the Hub or Junktown, if I remember correctly. You'd meet some encounters along the way which might give you some difficulty but nothing I would consider along the same lines as a starting character verses a horde of death claws.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

In Final Fantasy 8 the first thing I did was go to the place labelled training centre only to run straight into one of those t-rexes.

[greed]

By level ten you'd find a lot more Yao Gui and by level 20 the only creatures you'd ever really come into contact with were Mirelurk Kings, Deathclaws and Supermutant Masters because those were the only things that ever spawned. In Broken steel, by 30 you'd only come across deathclaws, albino radscorpians, overlords and reavers. So the risk of encounter really wasn't nil at all.

This is annoying and lazy game design. Scaling stuff based on your level is terrible and reduces the fun of exploration.

I'm aware it isn't new. I haven't played much of Fallout 2, but I know in Fallout 1, upon leaving vault 13 you were advised to go to Shady Sands but there was nothing really stopping bypassing it and going to the Hub or Junktown, if I remember correctly. You'd meet some encounters along the way which might give you some difficulty but nothing I would consider along the same lines as a starting character verses a horde of death claws.

Try going from Arroyo to San Fran with the patch so your new PC doesn't make the journey last 1 second. That's more what the equivalent of skipping right to Vegas is.
Also as numerous people have said getting past those death claws is far from impossible (including yes the ones that spawn away from the quarry a little bit to the north), honestly it's barely difficult. You're complaining about them making the shortcut to the second act somewhat difficult compared to to taking the suggested route. Frankly I'd be pissed if it wasn't hard to just go ambling right to Vegas. I sure remember being disappointed not finding anything threatening in Cyrodil or DC (except Old Olney) when I was just some level one punk with starting weapons and armour.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Except it's more like finding a sign that says 'DON'T JUMP DOWN THIS HOLE', avoiding that hole and jumping down the next one and dying anyway, because actually the game made it difficult to go north, told me one area was pretty suicidal, and even by avoiding that area it still turned out to be suicidal.

But that's still a pretty silly expectation. The game can't put signs in front of every obstacle, challenge and pit to warn you about them and tell you what you should be before you go in.

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

Except it's more like finding a sign that says 'DON'T JUMP DOWN THIS HOLE', avoiding that hole and jumping down the next one and dying anyway, because actually the game made it difficult to go north, told me one area was pretty suicidal, and even by avoiding that area it still turned out to be suicidal.

Which is pretty much a symptom of a larger problem. As I've said before, it felt like the game was telling me to go back, and follow the pre-set path of Goodsprings - Primm - Nipton - Novac. From there it opens up, but that's not really a good role playing game. I should have the freedom to go where where I want in a roleplaying sand box game, which is why I prefer Fallout 3. After you left the vault you were encouraged to go Megaton but the game never really tried to stop you if you felt inclined to walk all the way to the Republic of Dave. You were specifically told there were Death Claws at Old Olney which you could avoid without any trouble at all. I'm not saying it's too hard, I'm saying it was intentionally harder than it should have been just to force you, the player, on to the path the game designers wanted you on. That's what made it less enjoyable for me.

The game tells you Going north is Suicidal. Not that the quarry is suicidal, not that the giant radscorpions are, but that heading to the north is asking for trouble because the route is filled with the biggest baddest monsters in the Mojave.

It specifically tells you that the route between Goodsprings and New Vegas by heading that direction is a dreathtrap, which is why nobody is using it. They tell you about the Quarry because that's the nest. But that doesn't really mean they're not going to be anywhere else. Especially since they're hunters.
If a pack of lions live in a cave, does that mean they're only ever going to be seen at that cave?
It's like in 3, the game tells you there's a lot of Super Mutants in that one vault, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be other places.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by greed

Also as numerous people have said getting past those death claws is far from impossible (including yes the ones that spawn away from the quarry a little bit to the north), honestly it's barely difficult. You're complaining about them making the shortcut to the second act somewhat difficult compared to to taking the suggested route. Frankly I'd be pissed if it wasn't hard to just go ambling right to Vegas. I sure remember being disappointed not finding anything threatening in Cyrodil or DC (except Old Olney) when I was just some level one punk with starting weapons and armour.

I'm aware it's not impossible, and it can be done. That's not the problem. I wasn't even trying to go to New Vegas, I was just trying to explore the new region, but apparently I had to play through a sizeable amount of the story before I could really do that. By cutting off that one route, they've made it so that the entire North region is far less accessible than the south, which makes it far less interesting. The game is pretty much saying 'you should be content with the south until you reach Novac.' It's a sand box game, but I'm being told to play in one half the box.

Originally Posted by Karesh

But that's still a pretty silly expectation. The game can't put signs in front of every obstacle, challenge and pit to warn you about them and tell you what you should be before you go in.

Not really. If you're told that the lions are in the cave, and you avoid the cave, maybe you'll see one or two but the implication is that if you avoid the cave you'll avoid the lions. That isn't the case.

Originally Posted by Karesh

The game tells you Going north is Suicidal. Not that the quarry is suicidal, not that the giant radscorpions are, but that heading to the north is asking for trouble because the route is filled with the biggest baddest monsters in the Mojave.

And I was prepared to deal with this. I already told you I got past the giant radscorpians.

Originally Posted by Karesh

It specifically tells you that the route between Goodsprings and New Vegas by heading that direction is a dreathtrap, which is why nobody is using it. They tell you about the Quarry because that's the nest. But that doesn't really mean they're not going to be anywhere else. Especially since they're hunters.
If a pack of lions live in a cave, does that mean they're only ever going to be seen at that cave?
It's like in 3, the game tells you there's a lot of Super Mutants in that one vault, but that doesn't mean they're not going to be other places.

Thing is, I'm not talking about random encounters or other areas where they are. It's not like I'm complaining that there's deathclaws anywhere in the game other than the quarry. They mentioned the quarry had deathclaws so I avoided the quarry. I was prepared to face more giant radscoprians, or cazadors. I knew it wouldn't be easy. I didn't expect however, to be told that the quarry is where the death claws are, bypass the quarry and find a small herd of them a little further on anyway. I may as well have just walked into the quarry.

I'm not necessarily saying it's realistic, but again I'm not exactly playing Fallout for realism.

[Karrrrrrrrrrrresche]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

I'm aware it's not impossible, and it can be done. That's not the problem. I wasn't even trying to go to New Vegas, I was just trying to explore the new region, but apparently I had to play through a sizeable amount of the story before I could really do that. By cutting off that one route, they've made it so that the entire North region is far less accessible than the south, which makes it far less interesting. The game is pretty much saying 'you should be content with the south until you reach Novac.' It's a sand box game, but I'm being told to play in one half the box.

Honestly, why is this a problem? What would even be the point of leveling, gaining gear and experience throughout a game if you could just waltz wherever you like at level 1 and do exactly as well as a level 35?
Seriously. Tell me.
If I have a level 35 who's been through Old World Blues and has 40,000 caps and all the best guns and equipment and maxed out skills and I go to that quarry and have exactly as much trouble as a guy fresh outta Goodsprings, what was the point? Why should I have ever bothered with any of it? I should have just walked right up to the Fort, smacked Caesar in the face with a baseball bat and then done the battle for Hoover Dam with a 10mm and the Vault Jumpsuit.

Not really. If you're told that the lions are in the cave, and you avoid the cave, maybe you'll see one or two but the implication is that if you avoid the cave you'll avoid the lions. That isn't the case.

The thing is if the Lions (Deathclaws) are nested in that area, that means their prey is not going to be there anymore, having already been eaten or run off.
If the Lions (Deathclaws) stay in the cave all the live long day and go out only for the occasional stroll through the Mojave alone they're going to starve to death.

And I was prepared to deal with this. I already told you I got past the giant radscorpians.

I'd say you weren't, since...well, you didn't get through, right?

Thing is, I'm not talking about random encounters or other areas where they are. It's not like I'm complaining that there's deathclaws anywhere in the game other than the quarry. They mentioned the quarry had deathclaws so I avoided the quarry. I was prepared to face more giant radscoprians, or cazadors. I knew it wouldn't be easy. I didn't expect however, to be told that the quarry is where the death claws are, bypass the quarry and find a small herd of them a little further on anyway. I may as well have just walked into the quarry.

But again just because the Deathclaws are in the quarry, just because most of them stay there, doesn't really even come close to implying that they're all there.

I'm not necessarily saying it's realistic, but again I'm not exactly playing Fallout for realism.

What are you playing it for then? Do you want a mod that removes all the enemies so you can wander around freely? Or would you rather be playing a hunting game, where you can shoot helpless animals? It really seems like RPGs and Fallout in particular just aren't for you if you want to be able to do everything and anything from the getgo without putting something into it.

edit: At that: would you have felt any better about it had a pack of Cazadors been fluttering around?
Would it just being anything other than a Death claw had made it any better?