The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Lockeownzj00]

Originally Posted by Loki, the Fallen

I don’t believe in controlling these things...

How? That's the only way to prevent their 'bad' usages.

We must stop thinking about thoughts and ideas as harmless wisps in the wind. They are real and they exist, and they have tangible effects on our society in every way. You can't and shouldn't be able to go around with unjustified ideas unchecked. It is dangerous, because ideas are memetic. And bad ideas spread just as much as good ones.

Originally Posted by Loki, the Fallen

But here’s the best part, from every post I have read by you it appears you wish to control this thought; that you wish to have humans only believe in your belief. What is with that?

Yes, I do. Just like I believe no one should be racist. I don't think any intelligent person would be angered by a world sans racism. Do I think it's realistic? Not necessarily. But moral relativism is a waste of time and it only impedes progress. Yes things would be better off if everyone agreed on this. This is the point I have been making the entire time. You've distilled the entire debate into a single sentence that only states factually my position. "Religion is a waste of time, it would be better if no one were religious."

I don't believe the world to be this endless tipping of scales which must be balanced out. Everybody isn't right. Certain ideas hold more water. Certain beliefs systems more accurately represent reality. It's the 21st century. There is no excuse for this anymore. All I can say is wait a few years and you'll see the decline yourself. It has to happen. It will.

Originally Posted by 42Petunias

You can't say all the great things that science has brought us, and then say everything bad that Religon has.

I'm not being unfair. I dare you to come up with a mark on humankind made by religion that hasn't been negative.

Many have pointed out the negative uses of technology. But even these negative uses prove nothing: as Harris said in a quote I related earlier, these misuses aren't examples of being "too reasonable." There's no such thing as being too logical and rational in this case. In fact, these misuses are in the same realm of illogic as religion, so that's no point against science.

Originally Posted by 42Petunias

Secondly, religon has definitly done good things. They may not outweigh the bad effects, but they are still there. religon does make many people happy, it gives people a purpose in life, and while it might not create feelings of charity, it helps, and serves as an organizational tool for many charities. Leaving that much stuff out and portraying it as a complete list of the things each has brought us is misleading.

Once again I point out that you have nothing solid to fall back on. The only thing you can credit to realigion is "making people feel good," which I've spoken about ad nauseam. Placebo can make you feel good too, but that only goes so far.

A "purpose" in life? What does that even mean? Doctors Without Borders isn't a purpose? Becoming an athlete isn't a purpose? The only "purpose" religion gives you is that of being mentally oscitant. Your justifications are ever still vague and formless, and that just can't pass when it comes down to it.

Originally Posted by Nique

It's entirely concivable, and likely, that religion has been involved as motivator in many technilogical developments in the past. Printing presses, anyone? So locke, you can't really attribute 'advancement' to scientific interests alone. Some people also do it for the money?

My point, Nique, wasn't the motivator. Even if religion was the motivation, the point is that only reason produces results. I'd like to dispell once again any notion that religion somehow is more advantageous for this mythical form of "reason" it uses called faith. My point in that list was showing that all of us sitting in our chairs right now typing on our computers could only be possible because of rational thought. If inventors thought religiously--if they built everything on "faith--" we would still be "peeling bananas," so to speak. There just is no such thing as a practical application of faith, either in philosophy or any other realm of life.

[Demetrius]

Originally Posted by Archbio

Lots of creatures: still doomed to torture. Universe and its rules: still hijacked by entities supposedly hostile to god. Even thought that entity and the laws of the universe are all done by god.

If only the god of the bible wasn't so amused by making the universe in such a way that it could be interpreted as blatantly contradicting the account of the bible, and by hiding out of sight for several centuries.

How could he know it wouldn't be all people wouldn't blindly believe what one specific ancient text among many others says? That's right, he's god.

Oh and the hoops god has to go through to go around his own universe and save us from its own will? Hilarious.

None of what you have said even makes any sense. What contradicts the bible? Hoops? There is one hoop, a really hard one to get through too (sarcasm btw). Oh yeah and the horribly harmful doctrine of unconditional love and forgiveness. Post something for me to actually respond to. I respect the beliefs that you hold, that is why I will do my best to reasonably discuss them and how they relate to mine. Please keep that in mind.

[Archbio]

Demetrius,

Post something for me to actually respond to.

I did. It's the lower half of the post. This is identified in bold. I think that's all that needs to be said about your level of attention to my post.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Archbio

Demetrius,



I did. It's the lower half of the post. This is identified in bold. I think that's all that needs to be said about your level of attention to my post.

Or maybe you edited the post after he already read it and responded.

[Archbio]

You must be half right. According to the timestamps, I edited my response to Demetrius two minutes before they responded. That is, while they were responding.

That would explain why his response only contained the first portion of my post.

Thank you for implying I did it on purpose, though (and accusing me of being one of those filfthy time travellers).

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Archbio

You must be half right. According to the timestamps, I edited my response to Demetrius two minutes before they responded. That is, while they were responding.

That would explain why his response only contained the first portion of my post.

Thank you for implying I did it on purpose, though (and accusing me of being one of those filfthy time travellers).

That wasn't my intention. I'm going to stop this before I cause the damn thread to be closed.

[Demetrius]

Bio, sorry didn't see the edit (damn time travellor!! ;p)

Satan rebels against god. Then, Satan makes people go to hell (according to the person I was replying to) when they don't follow god's will. Satan insures that following god's will has an upside. Hell and Satan become instruments of god's will, against god's will. Incoherence reigns.

GOD is actually the one who sends people to hell:

Originally Posted by Revelation 20

10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The point I'm trying to make is that GOD sets the rules, gives you a choice and then holds you to it.

[Darth SS]

The more I hear people talk about the almighty power of God, the more this thought creeps into my mind...


If you're right, then God is a complete wuss.


I mean, look at it likes this.

"So I created the universe. Then I decided what is good, I.E. what I want. Except, when I created it, I knew that one of my favorite angels was going to turn on me and do everything that I didn't want. I could've stopped anything bad from happening, but I decided it's more honorable to let them do what they want regardless of how many people he may hurt. So then I made the earth. Now, I made these things called humans. They are my mostest favoritest things on the whole planet."

Now, his message to humans.

"So, you have to acknowledge that I am completely awesome. You must praise me almost constantly, and you should do your best to get other people to praise me. If not, I'm going to let someone torture you horribly forever. Oh, and by the way, my rival, Satan, is going to offer you everything that you find good. I'm also going to stand by and do nothing as you all suffer terrible horrible fates that I knew were going to happen. Some people claiming to represent me will then tell you that if you read a book that is totally incomprehensible and tell me how awesome I am, and ask for me to help you which I probably won't do because I want to test you, you'll feel less sad about the terrible things that I watch on my TiVO."


Well, either a complete wuss or he has a MASSIVE ego.


Did I miss anything?

[Archbio]

Demetrius,

GOD is actually the one who sends people to hell

As I said, it was according to someone who was saying that Satan was responsible for the whole hell thing, thereby excusing god, and allowing them to say that god doesn't want people to be tortured for eternity.

Both versions are equivalent, to me.

Bob,

I'm going to stop this before I cause the damn thread to be closed.

I was going to say that I wanted to know if you got the gist of my response, and what would be your reply to it, but I just realized just how fruitless this is.

Darth SS,

That sounds about right.

[Demetrius]

Massively justified ego yo! It kinda goes like that except Satan was created to do what he did, GOD made the choice available. GOD does help every day, but that is more of that illogical placebo stuff and babies surviving massive falls, people just happennig to do something out of their ordinary and end up in the spot they can do the most to help someone, crazy junk like that.