Boycott Atlus

[Ryong]

This thread is going in circles now.

- group a angry about transphobia
- group a explains the reasoning
- group b misunderstands
- group a gets angry
- group b complains about not helping their cause
- group a shows good arguments
- group b either leaves thread or joins group a

[A Zarkin' Frood]

You forgot
- everyone: PARTY!
- Ryong: poop.

[shiney]

See I'm glad the tone of this thread has taken a turn for the ridiculous, now I'm going to ask everyone to just take a step back.

Pip, you should probably leave the thread - I say this for your own good. I know you're earnestly trying to present your position, but nobody else is interested at this point. It is probably best for you to suck it up and retreat to lick your wounds.

Everybody else, back the fuck up off Pip now because this community is small enough without you savaging what remnants we still have over a disagreement. His viewpoint is questionable at best but he makes an extremely valid point that everyone has been given a free pass to kick the shit out of him with total immunity. That ends at this moment - he may be obtuse, willfully or no, that's not for me to decide, but that doesn't excuse the behavior. His idiocy or bias or ignorance or whatever you want to call it doesn't suddenly mean it's AOK to dogpile on him like that.

This goes for everyone. No exceptions.

Please stop, now.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Grand Master Kickface

I think that the reason Pip, Rpg, and I are upset is that transphobia is being assumed in place of mere ignorance. It is the responsibility of activists to bear the burden of communicating their grievances to the uninformed; while it is not fair that the ones who already understand should have to do so, human interaction is not rooted in fairness. People cannot spontaneously generate knowledge.

However, this gulf in understanding has, I feel, been used to justify self-righteousness and hostility instead. When those of us who don't understand say "Hey, you're being unnecessarily hostile," we're met with further hostility, which in turn creates feelings of self-righteousness on the part of the ignorant, which in turn creates the total shitfuck we have now.

To clarify: the mistreatment and misunderstanding of transsexuals is something completely justified in feeling angry about. But turning that anger upon unrealized allies is self-defeating activism.

Man, you'd maybe have a point except that RPG and Ryong haven't really gotten much hostility since they've stopped ignoring explanations given to them (other than RPG for a bit from Nikose but that was silly and Nikose).

Pip's gotten hostility because oh man read Pip's posts.

Just read them.

You haven't gotten any.

Magus didn't get any.

Other people who expressed similar views didn't get any.

Bells didn't get any until like the fourth time things had to be explained to him AND he started using the tone argument.

So as it stands over here in the world of reality, you kind of lack a point.

If there's something you don't understand about transphobia you could try asking about it in a way that doesn't include "I just don't see why you're upset" or "Well evolutionary psychology supports these horrible things" or "Sexual advertising works on men but not women (it doesn't actually work on anyone, at least not well)" or other somewhat aggressive or apologetic towards social hate views and you'll get an answer or a link to a post or a tumblr or whatever that answers you with minimal insults*.

Also, this has been linked in the first post but start here. Also check arguments/discussions on here.

*There have to be SOME insults, this IS NPF.


EDIT: Fuck Snake ninja'd me with a single sentence post while I wrote something much longer. I have been teleported to bizarro world. I don't know how to deal with this.

[Ryong]

Originally Posted by A Zarkin' Frood

You forgot
- everyone: PARTY!
- Ryong: poop.

Matches perfectly with your signature, too.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Krylo

Man, you'd maybe have a point except that RPG and Ryong haven't really gotten much hostility since they've stopped ignoring explanations given to them (other than RPG for a bit from Nikose but that was silly and Nikose).

Hey, I didn't do shit. I heard the explanations and just went "oh, okay". I complained ages ago about the whole "heterosexual male gaze" issue and that's it.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Krylo

EDIT: Fuck Snake ninja'd me with a single sentence post while I wrote something much longer. I have been teleported to bizarro world. I don't know how to deal with this.

Ahahahahaha
Guys I think I just made Krylo question his sanity
This thread has been redeemed

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Ryong

Hey, I didn't do shit. I heard the explanations and just went "oh, okay". I complained ages ago about the whole "heterosexual male gaze" issue and that's it.

Yeah did you even really get any hostility?

Also, I used you and RPG as examples pretty much because you both went 'oh okay' eventually and then didn't get any further hostility.

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

There's a huge difference between the uninformed admitting mere ignorance and engaging in a constructive conversation to educate themselves, and the uninformed pretending to be sufficiently informed to pass judgment upon the legitimacy of said grievances.

Yeah, cause i tried that first part and got a brick to the face... And i'm sure there are a thousand "Oh but here is why that happened..." but they, so far, all seem very "brick to the face" shapped, cause god forbid someone don't understand a poorly made and explained point and end up with a different opinion...

I'm truly glad i skipped this thread, i had a couple of great days, good sleep, watched a bunch of cool old movies and didn't have to get dragged to "Shin Kicking hell" this thread has become of internet bickering drama...

Better yet i still think that standing against stereotypical portrait of characters and bad characterization of any group in any media, is right and well deserving cause. And i still think if Atlus handled badly a Trans character then it's only fair to call them on it and promote a open, fair discussion about it at lenght.

That said, i still think the Boycott is stupid and misguided.

So, before i step outside again (and this time for good, don't worry about it...) i just want to share this

Though I can't speak for most of the rest of this article, due to having no experience with those games, with the exception of Operation: Babe Hunt, which I do agree with you on (excluding your comment on its heteronormativity, which is not really a valid topic when referring to only one example; heteronormativity is a larger issue), you're very off-base in your argument about Persona 4.

Naoto's character is not about being trans; it is about the issue of gender roles and how they affect one's perception of their own gender. Naoto's status as trans is a matter of individual perception, as their arc leaves their gender intentionally vague.

The main reason that Naoto identifies as a trans man when you first meet them is because society is telling Naoto that the only heroes that exist are male. All of the heroes that they identify with are male, and the job that they want to do is dominated by men. The idea of a "hero," then, becomes an idea suited only to the male gender in the mind of Naoto.

When you enter into their dungeon, it is very clear that this young adult fiction that Naoto grew up with had a strong effect on them, as the dungeon is entirely based off of a futuristic bunker out of a tokusatsu show. An important thing to remember about the dungeons is that they are based off of the character's self-perception, the Shadow bosses, especially. Thus, the strength of the influence of this material on Naoto is made clear.

The boss fight does portray sex reassignment surgery as dangerous, but, as mentioned previously, this is all within the mind of Naoto. THEY are scared of the surgery. This does not mean that sex reassignment surgery is dangerous; this means that Naoto is scared of it. The Shadow Naoto that you then fight is shown as a bisected, robotic version of the character. All of the bosses are heavily symbolic (often obviously). This boss illustrates that Naoto is actually at odds with themselves, lending credence to the idea that Naoto is actually scared of surgery because they are unsure of what their gender is.

Character movesets in Persona 4 are as symbolic as the Shadow bosses (Chie's ice to contrast with Yukiko's fire, etc.), and Naoto has perhaps the most blatant one: light, dark, and almighty. Light, the Yin; Dark, the Yang; Almighty, the Neutral. In their original uses, the halves of Yin and Yang had genders assigned to them, Yin as male, Yang female. Almighty, the only neutral magic element within the game (and, of course, the most obviously positive one), along with the contrast of the Yin and the Yang, shows more of this dichotomy, but it also brings in the idea of neutrality.

Neutrality, in the SMT games, is represented as the most morally "good" alignment. The "true endings" (and the hardest endings to attain) of every SMT game are the neutral endings, the "screw heaven and hell, forge a path for humanity" endings, the "true hero" endings. The idea of a hero, in SMT, is rooted out of making a path for yourself in a world shaped by dichotomy.

The social link you go through with Naoto (discounting the romance bits, which I do take issue with, and will be discussed shortly) is about them finally gaining confidence in themselves, no matter what their gender actually is. They learn to have confidence in themselves and accept who they are and what they want to do in their lives, gender disregarded.

This idea is marred somewhat if you choose to go into the romantic path with Naoto and make one, very specific dialogue choice in the social link. They arrive at your home on Christmas, dressed for you in the high school's girl's uniform, noticeably uncomfortable. They love the MC, and as such they want to fit his ideal lover: a female gender role. It essentially becomes the initial conflict Naoto went through again, with them adjusting their gender to fit the ideals of other people.

One can romance Naoto without them wearing the girl's uniform, but the path to even romancing Naoto, girl's uniform or no, is extremely difficult. Their link is given to you quite late in the game, you have little time to finish it, and you have to make the exact right choices at each dialogue option in their social link to get to the point of paramour. And, if you romance them and make the choice for them to wear the girl's uniform, they are still uncomfortable. They make it clear that it doesn't suit them, and the game holds you to what you did. It lets you know that you have done wrong to them much as society did when it told them to be a man because they wanted to be a detective. You show this person love, and you make it come at the price of their individual, self-determined identity.

Thus, Naoto's actual gender identity is still left up in the air as the game ends. They may be trans, and they may not be. That is not what matters about Naoto. What matters is that they are a real hero, someone who can forge their own path through the world and have confidence in themselves, not bending to societal gender roles and gender dichotomies. The player character may distort Naoto's gender, but the game lets them know that they have done wrong if they make the choice to do that.

Concretely stating that Naoto is trans or not is incorrect; there is no point in the game where their true gender is completely clear. Their identity lays within the realm of neutrality, as many archetypal heroes do, especially within SMT. By saying that, firmly, factually, Naoto is trans, you are doing what society (and possibly the cruel player character) has done to them: you are disgregarding their true identity and using it to suit your own ends. You are forcing the character to fit this role. Of course, there is nothing wrong with having, in your head-canon, that Naoto is trans, in much the same way there is nothing wrong with having a head-canon that Naoto is cis. But their true identity is left, within the game, vague. Due to this vagueness, their character arc is representative of not the plights of the trans community, but anyone who has been confused about their individual gender identity. As someone who was going through similar issues when I first played Persona 4, it managed to teach me a lot about my own identity as genderless, just as Kanji's taught me a lot about my pansexuality. From Naoto, we learn that heroism is a gender-neutral concept; that society does not have to define who you are and what you will do with your life; and that one's search for an individual identity should be a purely introspective experience, away from the outer influences that may pervade and distort your perception of who you truly are.

Which came from here

http://nightmaremode.net/2012/05/the...to-stop-19231/

I'm sure Liz remembers it...

i'm not going to state what i think about, because so far that only got my words twisted and dissected worst than a Space Whore From Venus, so there you have it...

Also it seems it's always the same group going to a multitude of places to engange people with the same overly raging context and picking a fight instead of a conversation, and again and again people stand against it... so either the whole world is out to get ya or you're just really bad at getting attention to a deserving message.

I'm off! If anyone cares to join me on the break room, i'll make a extra pot of coffee and i brought cookies.

[Jagos]

Originally Posted by Liz

Persona 4 dismisses Naoto's trans identity as "just wanting to get away from sexism", an idea that is commonly believed by transphobic people about trans men. It's reinforcing a negative attitude towards trans men that already exists in culture. Furthermore, it uses a "mad scientist experiment" as a metaphor for gender reassignment surgery.

Having experience with Japanese culture, I have to say after looking at Shadow Naoto that I'm getting a bit of a different vibe from the video than you might get. Naoto seems to be a female and from what you were saying before I thought she was born with both parts to be transgender. Now I think Naoto is crossdressing to be more of a tomboy and be accepted as "one of the guys."

So what could have happened to make this better? As I'm aware in the Japanese culture, there are women that use male proverbs for themselves and act more tomboyish without many of the problems. Perhaps this is lost in translation but Makoto is one example off the top of my head of a girl that acts a lot like a guy.

[CABAL49]

Originally Posted by Jagos

Having experience with Japanese culture, I have to say after looking at Shadow Naoto that I'm getting a bit of a different vibe from the video than you might get. Naoto seems to be a female and from what you were saying before I thought she was born with both parts to be transgender. Now I think Naoto is crossdressing to be more of a tomboy and be accepted as "one of the guys."

Originally Posted by CABAL49

Women don't go growing a dick just because men are mean. If you want to talk about realism, getting a sex change for something like that is something that does not happen. There are women who have dressed as men to escape sexism, but that is as far as it goes. There is a big BIG difference between being transgendered and cross-dressing.

.