A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

Smarty brought it up in a different thread: The prison system is not effective, yet that's what we're doing here. It's not going to correct anyone's thought patterns, it's just going to keep them away from us.

I think the moment you sincerely compare NPF's Moderating system and its methodology in responding to offensive content in posts to a prison system is the moment you completely lose me in exaggerations.

Frankly, when one side says something bigoted, the usual response from the side combating said bigotry -- even and including Liz, in threads like the 'Boycott Atlus' thread -- has been rational discourse asking said individual to stop the offensive behavior and pointing out why said behavior was offensive.

The usual response to that post is what sets Liz and everyone else off -- namely, the usual response to reasoned criticism is "But it's Liz, therefore Liz and her goonies are being irrational and mean." Only instead of saying that, the language is usually far more offensive in its dismissive tone.

Given the persistence of that behavior, it really isn't surprising that eventually Liz and others would give up on the quest of attempting to 'inform' and 'educate' politely. At one point or another, if members of this forum choose to persist in said dismissive behavior, the default response is to write those members off and belittle their offensive words and conduct, perhaps moreso for the benefit of others than those belittled, because while we can't force the critics to listen to reason, we can make sure that members of minority groups who would otherwise be harmed -- like Terex, Liz, Pocheros, etc. -- continue to feel appreciated and welcome in our midst by calling out asshole behavior when we see it.

[Inbred Chocobo]

I wanted to start off by addressing what I have seen in this thread and only in this thread, and what I take from all of it. I've been wanting to write this up for a few days now, as there are a lot of points that I want to address here.

I think the biggest thing here is that the idea of debating itself needs to be addressed first. One thing that people are saying is that when you debate, you need to be able to look at things logically, and understand that you need to be able to say to yourself that you are wrong. To anyone that debates, you need to understand that debating is as much an emotional and social fight as it is a battle of logic. People are generally afraid and worried about what other people think of them, without realizing it. What happens in debating is that if you make an argument that makes someone look bad, that person becomes scared, fearful, and then reacts to that. They may try to come up with other logical reasons, they may try to cut down your integrity and make you look bad. Then, when you become the target of these things, now you are starting to look bad, and you react appropriately.

When Pip Boy first posted in this thread, his post was littered with fear, worries, and depression. Why make this public, as he was attempting to garner support in some small way, to make people think more of him. When Liz posted her response...

Originally Posted by Liz

Haha, "I'm not as bigoted as my parents but I'm still getting called bigoted when I say bigoted things???" Have fun.

...it was a classic case of trolling. Pip was at a point of worriment and confusion, and a post was made that did nothing but cause emotional and angry responses from the rest of the board. Because of that one post, the rest of her posts now gain a very hateful and bitter tone, even if they do not mean it. That one sentence, that one line, trolled the entire board. This was why even an admin in this thread called her an asshole, as he read a post that flared his feelings, and caused him to react.

Liz, your arguments are constructed in a way to cause emotional responses, not logical ones. Let us take an example.

Originally Posted by Liz

Protip: The best way to get me to not call you a bigot is for you to not say bigoted things..

This first line from your next post has no effect on your argument, does nothing to show what you are trying to prove, and only moves to promote an emotional response. You in a single post undercut someone, insult them, and belittle them, and then construct an argument against bigotry itself and throw it in their face. That is forcefully going to cause them to respond emotionally, and such structure is going to cause this. This is what trolling is.

Originally Posted by Liz

It's funny because several people resorted to outright insults in this thread and none of them were me.

There was no need for this post, as you are now indirectly insulting people. If they insulted you, you report the post. Instead you are now trying to publicly humiliate the person, this is going to obviously en-flare strong emotions already.

Originally Posted by Liz

Nope.

Bigoted jokes contribute to bigotry because it creates an idea of what kind of bigotry is "okay". "Well, I can't say I hate asians, but I can say they're shitty drivers!" Meanwhile, these things promote stereotypes that affect how people behave in their day to day lives.

EDIT: Expanding on this, you are essentially creating safe speech for bigots, giving them behavior they can hide behind, and laughing along with them and telling them their bigotry is okay because hey you aren't ______ so it doesn't hurt you. And yes, there are members of oppressed groups who think such behavior is okay, but they tend to be the ones most disconnected from fighting for the rights of the groups they are a part of.

Here is something that everyone does that people cannot do. You assume in this post that you are perfectly right, and your opponent is perfectly wrong. This post isn't designed to convince the person that making jokes is wrong, this post was written to slap it in their face and call them idiots for even considering it. This is going to cause them to react harshly to it, without even realizing it. They are going to jump on it emotions running hot, a classic example of trolling.


I can go on with this, with pointing out multiple users and multiple posts from each user here, but in the end, it doesn't even matter. What happened here is that people had made posts that caused emotional responses out and flared emotions for everyone. Liz is the biggest offender of this, and I wanted to make this post because I want people to be aware that there is such a thing as trolling, and that you can do it without realizing it.

So what do we all take away from this? Everyone needs to realize a few things.

1.) What you say may or will hurt someone. If you hurt someone, they are going to lash back, and defend themselves. If you make a post and see this, look at why such a post was made, and why they are so angry. Step in their shoes and look at it, you may realize you have done something you shouldn't, and need to consider it.

2.) Someone is going to say something that will hurt you. If you read something, and become angry, sad, irritated, and want to immediately post something. Do not do it. Trolls post this kind of stuff all the time that enrage feelings and hurt egos, and this causes this emotional response. If you feel this, in any way shape or form, ask yourself why do you feel this? Read the person's post, did they really mean for that to occur? If you think you are being baited or trolled into this, then report it and have a third party come take a look. If they read like they are trying to prove a point, and its one that you disagree with, think logically about the situation, and step away from your emotions.

3.) Argue logically, not emotionally. When you state something, when you want to prove a point, when you wish to debate, put up the facts with references to prove them, realize that you could already be wrong and not realize it, make sure to understand that when you post, you post to learn more about the subject you are debating, not to prove you are right on the subject. When you debate with someone, you debate to learn, to educate, not to win. If you go into a debate to win, you go in to hurt people, you go in to make people cry, and you are going to make them want to leave. You do nothing for your cause or stance when you do this, as it puts people into an emotionally defensive state that other people will respond to, and cause people to rally against you.

I honestly believe, after days of looking over posts, and reading things, that Liz was trolling, and was trying to garner an emotional response from people, not a logical one. She may have her reasons, those reasons may be justified, but it is still trolling, it is still causing grief.

As for the argument on bigotry itself, that is for another day. There are many opinions and studies on it, and its something that I am not familiar with, so I am not even going to attempt. I just wanted to point out that, well, you guys have been trolled this entire thread, and everyone is falling for it.

[Whomper]

Originally Posted by shiney

See I'm doing it again, talking about what I meant. Who cares what I'm doing next. I only care that people find NPF a desirable place to want to come back to, and not somewhere that makes them feel disrespected, hated or alone.

Not that this matters much to anyone else here, but your comments regarding this situation have actually caused me to return to the Nuklear Power Forums on a regular basis. You of all people know how much difficulty I've had in the past with separating my emotions and actions from situations. Watching this all unfold as it has, I now have a timeframe stuck in my head: 15 to 30 minutes. You know I consider you a very personal friend, so seeing how you've absorbed this has really inspired me to try and do the same thing in many aspects of my life.

Thank you.

[Ecks]

holy fucking shit

guise

he's right

we've been trolled

HARD

[A Zarkin' Frood]

I wanted to make this post because I want people to be aware that there is such a thing as trolling, and that you can do it without realizing it.

Wait, what?

I was pretty sure that trolling is a intentional thing you cannot do without realizing it. Then I asked someone else who confirmed just that in case I was wrong all the time.

I am making this post because I was never under the impression that Liz was trolling and I believe calling her a troll is, in fact, a very stupid thing to do.

[Grimpond]

Originally Posted by Inbred Chocobo

STUPID BULLSHIT

That is some pretty heavy handed bullshit there. Liz is nothing if not sincere in her beliefs.

While better people have already made the point below me, trolling is totes nothing but intentional. Calling Liz a troll while overlooking all the very clearly non-trolling posts she has made in her arguments is frustrating.

When she calls people out? It's usually deserved. Like, Pip made a big ol' post about how he was leaving, and how victimized he was, etc. and then suddenly he comes back and makes a post to talk about why he got victimized. He knew fully well that this was a topic that stirred up incredibly mixed feelings, and yet he went on ahead trying to make it seem like his bigoted and rude statements were something other than what they were.

Liz called him out on that, and while it was super snarky, it was deserved.

I'd say what Pip did was the real trolling.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

I think the moment you sincerely compare NPF's Moderating system and its methodology in responding to offensive content in posts to a prison system is the moment you completely lose me in exaggerations.

Okay, yeah, it's an exaggeration. A big one at that, which probably does the point no favors? My point is though, dialog is generally better than just trying to BEAT the other side.

It feels like people here want to win, rather than have everyone be better people. And you can say that they've tried, were spurned, or whatever, but I straight up don't believe it. A lot of threads go immediately into attacking the person, versus telling them why they're wrong.

One of us is probably suffering confirmation bias, and I don't know if it's me or you. I also don't really feel like going through all the worst threads and posts on the forum to find out. I'm just pointing out what I see.

[Marc v4.0]

Originally Posted by A Zarkin' Frood

Wait, what?

I was pretty sure that trolling is a intentional thing you cannot do without realizing it. Then I asked someone else who confirmed just that in case I was wrong all the time.

I am making this post because I was never under the impression that Liz was trolling and I believe calling her a troll is, in fact, a very stupid thing to do.

Yes, trolling is an intentional act. You have to intentionally be trying to evoke a negative emotional response for no reason other than making someone mad or getting a response.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Grimpond

That is some pretty heavy handed bullshit there. Liz is nothing if not sincere in her beliefs.

He didn't say that Liz was insincere, but that she was specifically trying to get a rise out of Pip. And ignoring the stuff regarding Liz (I'm going to not have conversations about what Liz probably wanted to do), he has a good point about trying to WIN, versus trying to talk.

[Marelo]

Yeah uh... using rhetoric that evokes an emotional response is not always trolling. Seems kind of super silly to say that just because some people got upset at Liz, she was trolling.