The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Bob The Mercenary]

Okay, I just read something incredible. Give me a minute to copy and paste. It's what this entire thread has been orbiting around.


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"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

" Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? "Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."

[No answer.]

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, son."

"Is God good?"

"Er... Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All those terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them? "

[No answer]

The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer]

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.

"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

[No answer]

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Him? "

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelled your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer]

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer]

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits...Defeated(?).

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you if that's okay. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies, frowning. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes.

The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'.

We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 -- You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.

We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.

Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't.

If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains; "that for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure.

Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.

Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids you can buy, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses.

"Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?

The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you believethat we have evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's observable science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. What you call "science" too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "No sir, I mean-Your view of science is flawed. To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room.*Sir, the basic law of physics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and yet you in spite of that believe in "spontaneous generation" of the entire physical universe! Spontaneous generation of vermin was disproved centuries ago.

Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel! Sir, biogenesis is "observable science" as you say--life has only been observed to come from other life of like kind--and yet you apparently still believe that that is exactly what happened--in spite of science--that life somehow came from non-life and that animals gave birth to children of other kinds!.

Young man, the professor began tersely, I believe that science will eventually....

"That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

Make no mistake, Professor, we're both operating from faith."

There follows a long pause as the Professor stares the young Christian down without a word.


"And sir!, the student went on. Don't You create failure?! I mean, you set a standard for passing this class, sir and those who don't meet it, fail! Isn't that right? So by setting a standard and utilizing your previously expressed philosophy--you create failure! Professor, I mean has anybody ever flunked this class"?

"I may well be looking at such a someone right now", the Professor snarled!

"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?"

No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol and science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for, and begins filling out a drop slip.


[Edit] These verses accompanied it:

1 John 1: 5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

James 1:13 (King James Version) 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

Romans 1 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools..

[Archbio]

Next, Bob_the_Mercenary's discovery of sollipsism (and, hopefully, what the Strawman Fallacy is).

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary

"Isn't evil the absence of good?"

His argument falls apart right about here. Apathy is the absence of good.

Good is seeing someone being raped and attempting to stop it.

Zero good is seeing someone raped and walking away.

Evil is seeing someone being raped and then joining in.

Unlike cold, we have no 'zero good' mark which can not be gone below. You can easily go below not doing good on the moral scale.

"If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?

The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

And yet none of us have free will assuming, as we must in this case, an omniscient god. This arguement has been stated about fifty bajillion times, and has yet to have any real counter arguement as to how god can be omniscient and yet our will can be truly free.

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going,"

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

By saying that God's moral code is absent from the world, does nothing to prove that God, or his moral code (as a being can't have a moral code without existing) exists. Surely the CHRISTIAN moral code exists, but proving that it actually belongs to God involves proving God exists.

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

"Professor. All previous attempts to explain how the process works have failed. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

Actually, we have observed limited evolution amongst fruit flies that have become so different from each other in the span of a few decades that they would no longer reproduce. Basically one step short of total speciation.

We've also observed the evolution and speciation of single celled organisms.

FURTHER, we have a nearly complete fossil record that allows us to track the evolution of humanity.

This arguement is flawed and rests entirely upon Evolution being called a 'mere' theory, despite the fact that it has nearly as much evidence as gravity behind it now.

The difference between theory in law is only a matter of dates in science. Give evolution thirty years and it will be the law of evolution.

Again, his arguement is terribly flawed.

The Christian looks around the room.*Sir, the basic law of physics says matter can neither be created nor destroyed, and yet you in spite of that believe in "spontaneous generation" of the entire physical universe! Spontaneous generation of vermin was disproved centuries ago.

Firstly, may I say that on the quantum level we have already noticed that the laws of thermodynamics begin to break down as miniscule particles can appear and disappear from nowhere.

This is observable science.

May I suggest looking up 'mining the quantum field'?

FURTHER, the 'universe just poofed into existence' idea is flawed, as that many theories state that the universe never DIDN'T exist. Indeed many theories even argue that the big bang never actually happened.

The red shift theory (which gets its main components from alternate ideas on reading red shifts) is a good starting place. I have a book around here SOMEWHERE that lists off all the Big Bang opponents, that I'll get around to.

However, not even the big bang assumes the universe came from nowhere.

This boy is so far batting 0 for 0.

Talk about straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel! Sir, biogenesis is "observable science" as you say--life has only been observed to come from other life of like kind--and yet you apparently still believe that that is exactly what happened--in spite of science--that life somehow came from non-life and that animals gave birth to children of other kinds!

Again, fossil records, evolution in single celled life forms/virii (AIDS EVOLVED into a human virus, for instance), and the fact that the simplest of life forms are merely chains of organic chemicals which could be created in a lab.

He and his professor suck at debate.

"That science will eventually prove that matter can be created, that life can come from non-life" interrupted the young Christian? Sir, that's not science--that's Faith! What you believe is the exact opposite of "observable science"!Your faith is in what you are calling "science", my faith is in God who created "science".

Science has already proven those things.

"And sir!, the student went on. Don't You create failure?! I mean, you set a standard for passing this class, sir and those who don't meet it, fail! Isn't that right? So by setting a standard and utilizing your previously expressed philosophy--you create failure! Professor, I mean has anybody ever flunked this class"?

The creation of failure is far different from the creation of Hell.

And again, the dichotomy that exists here is different than that from good and evil--as that a low score simply means an absence of correct answers, whereas evil, as I pointed out above, is not the absence of good.

FURTHER, failing someone who doesn't do well in a class is not a punishment of any kind. Indeed it is a good act as that letting them continue onward after having failed will only result in further hardships later on in their life.

On the other hand, by the time someone is sent to the spiritual hell, there's no chance at redemption. It is, after all, eternal. You can't just 'retake' life, study harder, and get a passing score next time. PLUS, it is obvious what they want you to learn in a class, where it is not so obvious here in reality. Which religion is real? Are any of them? Do they want us to learn to hate the homos, kill the infidels, spread the faith, or love thy neighbor? What are we being tested on again? Faith or morality? You may THINK these answers are clear, but that's only because you've grown up with your religion. Anyone who has searched for their's knows that in reality, none of them are clear at all.

"Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's mind?" The class breaks out in laughter. The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelled the professor's mind?"

No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol and science, I DECLARE that the professor has no mind." The class is in chaos. The Christian sits... Because that is what a chair is for, and begins filling out a drop slip.

CAT scans, MRIs, autospies, X-rays and thousands of biological experiments prove that every human needs a mind.

It's a good thing he's dropping, as if the class grades anything on logic, he'd surely fail terribly.

Next, Bob_the_Mercenary's discovery of sollipsism (and, hopefully, what the Strawman Fallacy is).

Straw-man fallacy only applies when you're attacking a secondary and weaker point of your opponent's arguement in an attempt to distract the real point.

I'm not convinced this is one, as it targetted many points.

However, it's also completely worthless as the logic throughout is backwards and ridiculous, and I could probably point out about five DIFFERENT logical fallacies committed by the student if I really wanted to waste time putting a name to all of them.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Hardly any scientific explanation. It relies entirely on the semantics of good and evil.

Science also relies on more than just observation. There's logic, too, as you might recall. From somewhere. We can deduce ideas and things which we can't directly observe, from that which we can observe. So, another flaw.

It's also assumed that the professor believes in some sort of starting big bang, before which there was nothing. No way there could be an alternate theory to satisfy the student's cited law, like an eternal universe. Although it's kinda hypocritical to be using conservation of matter and energy and demanding only observed things at the same time. I'm pretty sure matter and energy hasn't been observed not being created or destroyed at all points in time, yet the student has no problem using the law to his advantage. Flaw++.

Finally?

Tell me, professor. Do you believethat we have evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

Need I say more?

[Darth SS]

Also just tossing this out...

The lack of energy behaves the exact same as energy does.

Stand outside a furnace and open the door, you feel heat rush at you.

Stand inside a house during a winter in Canada, and open a door and you get the exact same sensation just with cold.

It doesn't matter which way diffusion is going. If you have a two color system of sodium ions and no sodium ions, and alternate the colors then you get the exact same image just going the other way.

[Archbio]

Straw-man fallacy only applies when you're attacking a secondary and weaker point of your opponent's arguement in an attempt to distract the real point.

What if you attack a weaker, or even crippled, version of the argument, like this tripe does several times?

Nevertheless, I still think fake debates like this are very poor form, Socrates be damned. Tract material.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Feh, at least it got the discussion going again. I thought this thing died.

[Fifthfiend]

Topical!

Feh, at least it got the discussion going again. I thought this thing died.

It's not like there's a requirement saying this thread be going at all times. If someone's got any particular thing to say about religion then they can say it here, if nobody's got anything else to say theeeeeeeen they can not say anything.

[Magni]

Why is it that God gave us free will, but can punish us for the choices we decide to make with our "God given" free will?

And we evolved from ancient apes, not monkeys.

And as we evolved from those ancient apes, so did God.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Tool

Why is it that God gave us free will, but can punish us for the choices we decide to make with our "God given" free will?

Well if you take Preacher's explanation, it's cause God's a huge junkie.

I'm going to be honest, I don't really consider comic books to be less valid than any other source of theological polemicism.