Boycott Atlus

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Liz

I don't think there are any circumstances or explanations that excuse these facts. Even if you do not consider Naoto a trans man, it is plainly obvious that there are transphobic elements and themes present in the character's story.

...Oh, lemme clarify. I didn't mean to suggest that I disagreed with you (or agreed with the other commentator Bells quoted.) I view Naoto as something close to the commentator's position of her being 'genderless' or perhaps 'androgynous', but I also think P4's content was inexcusably transphobic and offensive to any transsexual player (or ally) who chose to identify Naoto as transsexual.

Just clarifying that.

That being said, I'm still eager to read your responses to this person on the blog because I think you two can have a solid discussion on the matter; it'll be far easier for you to persuade him/her, and a better use of time than wasting effort trying to persuade Bells or Pip.

[Kim]

The time has long passed to respond to that person. I'm not interested in dredging up that conversation, as it's full of fuckers. Like the guy who said I was proposing a Goskomizdat for gaming and that I scared him because I advocated consumer accountability.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Liz

The time has long passed to respond to that person. I'm not interested in dredging up that conversation, as it's full of fuckers. Like the guy who said I was proposing a Goskomizdat for gaming and that I scared him because I advocated consumer accountability.

Respectfully disagree there.

Oh, I mean, I get what you're saying about most the assholes who responded to your blog. Some of those jerks are real fuckin' jerks.

But if you're really serious about that boycott idea, you should be more than willing to engage anyone who's respectful and reasonable in articulating dissenting arguments. You gotta win over the ones who are worth winning over, right? That person seems intelligent, and although I -- and certainly you -- disagree with the arguments presented, they're not being presented in an offensive manner. Even if you just respond with a private message to avoid the outcry from the assholes, I still think it's a worthwhile conversation to have.

...Your choice, of course. And no one could expect you to be superhuman enough to respond to everyone. But I wouldn't toss in the towel on the reasonable ones just because they have the misfortune of being surrounded by hordes of bile. And even a late response may initiate a conversation that's well worth having.

[Ryong]

Atlus is apparently doing a sale so I'd say step it up with the boycott.

[pochercoaster]

Originally Posted by Grand Master Kickface

I think that the reason Pip, Rpg, and I are upset is that transphobia is being assumed in place of mere ignorance. It is the responsibility of activists to bear the burden of communicating their grievances to the uninformed; while it is not fair that the ones who already understand should have to do so, human interaction is not rooted in fairness. People cannot spontaneously generate knowledge.

No, it's NOT their responsibility. Saying that others are responsible for your education on the matter is just another way of victim blaming and a very insidious one at that. It is not the job of the oppressed to inform the oppressors; why do the actions of transphobes fall on the hands of transgendered people? Because one can't educate themselves? That's bunk- you have google.

Furthermore, when less privileged folk DO try to educate others, they are often shouted down, ignored, or have their experiences trivalized. That's because often folk who say they need to be educated by transgendered people/people of colour/the LGBTQ community/etc. are not sincerely interested in being educated- even if they think they are. They just want to feel comfortable with themselves and dispel any worries that they are part of a society that doesn't care about minorities.

I'm sure privileged folk don't think of themselves as oppressors; certainly I doubt anyone here is going out and beating up other people for their race/sexuality/gender identity/etc. However I believe everyone carries some amount of social responsibility. See, it's rarely anyone individual's FAULT, but it is our RESPONSIBILITY, so long as we continue to inherit our culture and society from our parents and our parent's parents. The last slave owner in the USA died off a long time ago but that doesn't mean we don't have to work against racism.

That responsibility, sadly, often gets shouldered by less privileged folk because they have to deal with it every day. But it's all too easy for everyone else to cover their eyes and plug their ears.

It is easy for someone with privilege to log on to a forum and write some things and log off and forget about it. Society does not require people to be sensitive to transgendered people. However a transgendered person cannot escape that. They wake up every day in a society that doesn't care about them and portrays them terribly such as in Atlus games and at its worst is violent towards them. They have no choice, they can't log off the net and forget about it.

This doesn't mean you HAVE to go out with some picket signs anywhere. But IMO the bare minimum of responsibility requires one to educate themselves about these issues and listen to others sensitively.

Going to write more, running to the store.

[CABAL49]

Man, I really don't get the whole hate on Liz. I've totally been more offensive. Not feeling the hate guys. But yeah, I think this:

Originally Posted by PCD

Even if you believe that Naoto isn't a transgender man, and really is just struggling to get ahead in a male-dominated society, that doesn't change the fact that her character storyline is painfully, grossly mishandled. The instant the other characters discover she's a woman, they start treating her as though she shouldn't be left alone, like she needs an escort and to be protected--this wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, since she did just go through the harrowing TV experience, if they didn't keep saying things like "Listen here, missy," and "You're a girl, after all." In other words, totally justifying the idea that she can't be taken seriously as a woman. Also, the only way to romance her is to encourage her to be more feminine. Because no one wants to date a girl who behaves in a masculine manner, or prefers androgyny. You must embrace femininity and wear schoolgirl uniforms to be desirable! In other words, even if you want to ignore all the transphobia present, I'd say it's pretty undeniable that Naoto's treatment feels pretty fucking sexist.
.

And this

Originally Posted by Liz

Creators are fully in control of their depictions of characters, the thoughts of the characters, etc. Characters aren't living entities in and of themselves. Regardless of anything else, Atlus created a character who presents as male for a substantial amount of the story, then uses the same rhetoric as transphobes to say, "Naoto isn't really trans. Naoto is just trying to escape sexism." The created the character and the circumstances that led to that moral, and portrayed gender reassignment surgery as a mad scientist experiment. Regardless of their character reasons for doing so, they still created the character in such a way as to use that metaphor. For many trans people, gender reassignment surgery can be a necessary part of feeling comfortable in their own bodies. Depicting that as some horrible, gruesome thing is hurtful to those people. Beyond that, the player is allowed to abuse Naoto's attraction to them to push him to be more feminine, even though it is clear he's not comfortable with presenting as such. Other elements about Naoto's "femininity" are mishandled throughout the game. Last but not least, content added to the game's universe after the fact goes even further in sexualizing Naoto as a woman and pushing the character to be more feminine.

I don't think there are any circumstances or explanations that excuse these facts. Even if you do not consider Naoto a trans man, it is plainly obvious that there are transphobic elements and themes present in the character's story.

Are more than good enough responses to the essay Bell's left. Cause it is pretty evident that the proof that has been put forth about gender roles, transphobia, racism and sexism are getting straight up ignored. That would best explain the "hostility" from us.

I mean, it is your job to explain to me why a boycott of Atlus is bad right? And how Atlus is not really Transphobic, but just has incompetent writers, right? And how consumer accountability won't change anything, right?

[Azisien]

Originally Posted by pocheros

No, it's NOT their responsibility. Saying that others are responsible for your education on the matter is just another way of victim blaming and a very insidious one at that. It is not the job of the oppressed to inform the oppressors; why do the actions of transphobes fall on the hands of transgendered people? Because one can't educate themselves? That's bunk- you have google.

It is unwise to trust the ignorant to educate themselves, by themselves. The burden is on the activist I'm afraid.

In a more general sense of argumentation, the burden of proof IS on Liz, though I think the arguments have been presented in a sufficiently detailed manner at this point.

[Jagos]

Originally Posted by PCD

I've been debating if I should put my two cents in here from the start, but hell, I'll just bite the bullet and bring up a few more points:

Even if you believe that Naoto isn't a transgender man, and really is just struggling to get ahead in a male-dominated society, that doesn't change the fact that her character storyline is painfully, grossly mishandled. The instant the other characters discover she's a woman, they start treating her as though she shouldn't be left alone, like she needs an escort and to be protected--this wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, since she did just go through the harrowing TV experience, if they didn't keep saying things like "Listen here, missy," and "You're a girl, after all." In other words, totally justifying the idea that she can't be taken seriously as a woman. Also, the only way to romance her is to encourage her to be more feminine. Because no one wants to date a girl who behaves in a masculine manner, or prefers androgyny. You must embrace femininity and wear schoolgirl uniforms to be desirable! In other words, even if you want to ignore all the transphobia present, I'd say it's pretty undeniable that Naoto's treatment feels pretty fucking sexist.

I also kind of can't believe no one brought up the disaster of the "Miss" Yasogami Pageant as an example. That was uncomfortable for reasons entirely separate from what Atlus intended.

Thank you PCD for actually explaining what I was missing instead of snark and intolerance.

[Solid Snake]

You can date Naoto while refusing to encourage 'femininity', to some extent.
In one of my P4 playthroughs, Yu was like "Keep the androgynous outfit, stay true to who you are, don't you dare change your voice," etc., and s/he seemed even more romantically interested in Yu because of it.
(In my other playthrough, Yu was equally supportive, but he and Naoto were just friends because I played a monogamous Yu who actually respected women.)

However, there's one moment relatively early on in a social link scene where you do have to tell Naoto that you think of him/her as a 'woman' in order to date him/her (as opposed to two other options; as a 'man' or 'I don't care which gender you are'), which is unfortunate because, why couldn't Yu be like "I'm bisexual / pansexual / more attracted to you as a man / as whoever you are?"

...Bah. At the end of the day, Naoto's portrayal is still irredeemably misogynistic, sexist and transphobic.

I think one of the reasons it's easy to support a boycott of Atlus specifically though is that they do just enough right with the characters to make it even more sad to recognize how sorely everything's been botched. Like, there's something to be said for just how many individuals who self-identify as 'progressive' -- or even as gay or transgendered -- scramble to Atlus' defense the moment these kinds of criticisms are made. The characters of Naoto and Kanji and Yukiko and Chie have pretty amazing personalities and a handful of genuinely touching moments. They're not cardboard-cutout stereotypes. Even as I find myself increasingly hating Atlus, I still have fond memories of those characters.

That arguably makes it even more important to address the major fuckups Atlus has made, because in identifying with and enjoying these characters many individuals are quietly enabling and encouraging Atlus to continue including offensive content. If even the 'most tolerant game developers' -- that's seriously how many progressive individuals view Atlus -- are actually intolerant, privileged and uneducated jerks on these issues, the game industry itself needs a huge wake-up call.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Jagos

Thank you PCD for actually explaining what I was missing instead of snark and intolerance.

I explained this shit like three goddamn times. Just because you, for some unfathomable reason, mistook trans to mean intersex doesn't change that.